earliest definition of clave - 1st written explanation of clave concept

[davidpenalosa]

Sublette makes the very reasonable point that that song was an example of a clave-like rhythmic pattern.

Hi Jorge,
I’ve noticed some confusion with people equating the single-celled tresillo and its variants (cinquillo, tango rhythm) with the two-celled clave pattern, and its variants (baqueteo, cascara, 12 bell, etc). The difference was blurred in an other wise, excellent episode of Afropop Worldwide (listen at: http://www.afropop.org/radio....ericas) that Sublet contributed to.

The two-measure figure written by Sublet on pg. 146 is not a variant of clave. It’s a measure of tresillo combined with a measure the tango rhythm (tresillo + backbeat). Both measures contain bombo, what Sublet calls "the undulation of clave" and both measures represent the three-side, so I find his particular point here to be weak. I don’t always agree with Sublet when he gets technical about music, but I always learn something from his writings.

Alejo Carpentier was not referring to clave-based music per sé. There was no written music in 1856 Cuba that was based on the two-celled clave. The first written music based on clave was the danzon (1879). Until then, it was the Cuban contradanza and its variants, all of which were tresillo-based. I think calling tresillo-based patterns "clave-like" can perpetuate this confusion. If one makes a distinction between the single-celled music and two-celled music, a lot of interesting connections can be observed.
-David

[zaragenca]

As I said before it is a guessing work, becouse they don't even point out the movement which started the interaction between the Contradanza and the Danzon, and which was the key resources which were used to accomodate the metric,(time signature),at that time.Dr. Zaragemca

[zaragenca]

I also could point out,(if it was a reference in a book),that 'Tu Madre is conga', is not a Contradanza, but the genre called, 'Habanera', which was a movement which started long before 1856....and the syncopation used for the music was based in a Bantu accentuation, which is totally different to the structure of the Contradanza..to point out how far they are from the point,I could tell that the key historical element in the foundation of the struturation of the cuban/music started in 1762,when the England won the war against Spain and ocupied Cuba, until Spain gave them,(England),the florida Territory,in order to get Cuba back..This is the reason that when sombody want to use the historical events in Cuba,they need a 'tutor', other wise they are going to be misguide.Dr. Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

"Habanera" was the name given to the style of Cuban contradanza played in Havana. In other words, the two terms are essentially synonymous.

"According to preeminent Cuban music historian Alejo Carpentier, the habanera was never called such by the people of Havana (for them it was just the local style of contradanza). It only adopted its present name when it became popular outside of Cuba." from: "habanera" -(http://www.pbs.org/buenavista/music/a_habanera.html)

The first written Cuban contradanza was in 1806. The "Bantu accentuation" you referred to was the Cuban contradanza's use of tresillo and its variants (cinquillo, tango rhythm). Always happy to provide my tutorial services here.
- Dr. David

[zaragenca]

You make a refernce to the firts cuban contradanza,(which is not related to the song, Tu abuela es conga),becouse the musical structure for the Contradanza is different than the one used for that song,it was called cuban Contradanza becouse they were writed in Cuba,but the musical structuration was all European,(which is diferent that what the patriotic movement were doing with the 'Habaneras'...People new what was a Contradanza becouse that style come form Europe...the Habanera was a different movement.Dr. Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

Gerry,
I have a couple of recordings of the first Cuban contradanza composition "San Pascual Bailon" (1806). So, are you saying that song has no African rhythmic influences what so ever? I’m hearing cinquillo in the very first measure of that song.

For what it’s worth, here’s Wikipedia:

>>Its origins dated back to the European contredanse, which was an internationally popular form of music and dance of the late 18th century. It was brought to Santiago de Cuba by French colonists fleeing the Haitian Revolution in the 1790s (Carpentier 2001:146). The earliest Cuban contradanza of which a record remains is "San Pascual Bailón," written in 1803 (Orovio 1981:118). This work shows the contradanza in its embryonic form, lacking characteristics that would later set it apart from the contredanse. <<

"Embryonic form" could mean anything of course.

According to John Santos’ liner notes on "The Cuban Danzon" (1982):

>>The European element can be traced to the French contradanza of the 18th Century…Arriving in the French colony of Santo Domingo (now the Dominican Republic and Haiti) during the 18th Century, the contradanza acquired some AFRICAN FLAVOR from the Creoles on the island… As a result of the 1791 slave uprising and revolution in Santo Domingo, a great number of French colonists and slaves came to Oriente, the eastern most province of Cuba… Upon arriving in Cuba the contradanza was QUICKLY ASSIMILATED and CREOLIZED.<< (caps put in by me for emphasis)

OK, "African flavor" and "Creolized" are very vague terms, but John sates that African influences entered the French contradanza in 1700’s Haiti before it even came over to Cuba.

As far as you know, what was the first Cuban composition to use tresillo and/or cinquillo?
-David

[zaragenca]

What I said is that the Contradanza was rooted on the European musical structure and the 'Habanera', was a different patriotic movement which wanted to set up the 'Cubania' in the arts,(both music and literary), the resources for the 'Habanera' was the,Chuchumbe,Guarachas,Maracumbe,etc., which have stronger african influences and the musical structure was rooted in the Cubania,(different than the Contradanza which was coming from Europe and everybody in Europe knew it that musical genre before coming to Cuba), this people the patriotic movement have to pay with the forced exile which started in 1824 and moved to Mexico,New Orleans,New Jersay,New York,..later Key West,Tampa,etc...There was not incentive in calling the names of the musical structure which was feeding the Habaneras, becouse it was against the taste of the 'elite; at that time and sponsored by the patriotic/ movement also this started the foundation of the Orquestars Tipicas in Cuba where the mayority of directors, (at that time), were Afrocuban musicians...In the literary movement there were personality as, Gertrudis de Avellaneda, Felix Varela,Cervantes, Brindis de Salas,(as musician),etc..which were forced to go to exile..Dr. Zaragemca

[zaragenca]

Also there were Italians the cultural movement in Cuba the first promoter of the cultural exchange between cuba and New Orleans was, Don Gaetano, around, (1817), which was bringing the dancers and singers from Cuba to New Orleans.Dr. Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

... it was called cuban Contradanza becouse they were writed in Cuba,but the musical structuration was all European...

I'll ask you the question again. Are you saying that the Cuban contradanza's musical structure is ALL European and has NO African rhythmic influences what so ever?
-David

[zaragenca]

IT is not the point that the Contradanza would get any influence what so ever,it is the point that since it s roots where European it didn't full fill the proposition of the patrotic movement of setting a musical/patrominio la 'Cubania', with a total root coming from the land,and that was the purpose of the so called 'Habaneras', musical resources and those were the musical structures which the Orquestras Tipicas wanted to use to create a national identity,( the point was that they have to fight the use of the drums in the cuban music up to 1936)... That's why the ,Habaneras, have nothing to do with the Contradanza......My question is now, which were the african influences of the Contradanza which you could point out?...your brother..Dr. Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

I got the part about the habanera’s association with Cuban nationalism, or "patriotism" as you put it. Thanks for sharing that. I wasn’t aware of it. My comments concern the music's structure only and not the social context.

What got my attention was your statement that the Cuban contradanza’s "musical structuration was all European". In answer to your question, I’m hearing cinquillo in the very first measure of first Cuban contradanza composition "San Pascual Bailon" (1806).

Also, Alejo Carpentier stated that the habanera was never called such by the people of Havana (for them it was just the local style of contradanza). So, if your assertion is that the "Habaneras, have nothing to do with the Contradanza", applies to their musical structure, I need to point out that all authorities I'm aware of do not share your opinion.
-David

[zaragenca]

Ok,brother,...first of all I have to admit that I enjoy talking to you, since you have take the time to do some research,....The Cinquillo,from where do you think the Cinquillo is coming from...and later we are going to talk about Carpentier also....Dr. Zaragemca

[ABAKUA]

I need to point out that all authorities I'm aware of do not share your opinion.
-David

You should know better David.
There is only one authority in these matters. Doctor, Authority and Master in his own mind.

[zaragenca]

But it is not about of just having an opinion,but to do the research in other to have that opinion with resources,dates,names,places,evaluations of the political and social connotation which where taking place which affect the cultural world in Cuba,etc..Dr. Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

Gerry,
I asked you a direct question in regards to a statement made by you. You responded by asking me a question. I answered your question and re asked my question. Now you responded with another question. It’s past your time to answer the question. It’s your turn.

Are you saying that the Cuban contradanza's musical structure is ALL European and has NO African rhythmic influences what so ever?
-David