"cinquillo-based rhythms"

[tamboricua]

Wow! Thank you, Jorge!

Are these songs on record somewhere?

TA

Yes, check out this video clip featuring the late Mayaguezano Félix Alduén y sus Tambores. This clip comes from the Banco Popular documentary titled Raíces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CfXywxuw4w

Enjoy,

Jorge Ginorio

[davidpenalosa]

Jorge,
Thanks for posting the link. That bomba song is definitely in clave! I am reconsidering my view of bomba.
-David

[bongosnotbombs]

the relationship between cinquillo based rhythms in the diaspora and on top of that the possible clave structure found in these rhythms (which may or may not always be the case and if so would make them more clave based than cinquillo or even both)....
.

So your saying that if a rhythm uses the cinquillo, but not clave, if it is arranged in a manner similar to
a clave rhythm that makes it more of a clave rhythm than a cinquillo rhythm?

A cinquillo rhythm can't have two sides? If it has 2 sides or cells then it is a clave rhythm? Regardless of whether clave is actually
played and even though the cinquillo is played?

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi David:

I think I understood what you meant regarding the guide function of either the caja or the song.

That particular iyesa bell part you notated does share a common rhythmic motif (your "X" is caps) with plena.

- And all the other rhythms that follow this idea. It is incorporated in the two-bar cinquillo/tresillo figures I notated.

Even a bombo variation in Conga Habanera has the two-bar tresillo motif, although the Conga comes from a different origin. Well, it's probable that all the Afro-Cuban rhythms have influenced each other at one point, to a certain extent. There is also a tumbao variation for congas that is frequently used in modern Cuban styles which has the hembra drum on "1+" and "2+" on the 3-side of the clave.

If we look at a two-bar constellation with the structure of:

| x--x--x- | -x-x--x- |

we have a 2/3 clave feel, even if 2-part is not "verbally" expressed. That's the way this two-celled figure "translates" into clave. It is not 3/3-clave. I know that you know.

The same is true for:

| --x---x- | -x-x--x- | (remember the Maracatú bell pattern? These are the high notes of that pattern.)

or:

| ---x--x- | -x-x--x- |

and so on.

Each time you mention that the 2/3-3/2 concept doesn't apply to folkloric forms, I feel reminded to this guy Cato who persistently finished every speech he held before the Roman senate with the words "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" until everyone just had to be convinced that Carthago must be destroyed. I understand that there are cases where the terminology seems to be inappropriate. But in most cases the concept is there.

The question we have to face is, when does an idea (of clave) become an issue of consideration; and when does this consideration become transformed into a reflex, a feeling; when does the feeling then become a concept of concern, and when does the concern evolve into a obligatory rule that demands expression? And from which point on do we speak about the presence of the idea? For me, clave is present at it's earliest state of consciousness; it is present in Brazilian music, although the clave is often broken, and although nobody speaks about clave there (or am I wrong)? It is present in the earliest forms of African and Afro-American music (including Jazz). It isn't evolved or refined as much; it might not even be recognized, but it's already there.

Same with the 3/2-2/3 concept. The majority of Lucumí songs I transcribed has a clearly definable clave direction; some are ambiguous, and it is almost merely a philosophical question whether we should avoid the terminology of 3/2 and 2/3 clave directions altogether. Perhaps you can prove that the musicians themselves are not aware of a clave concept. Perhaps you discover that the formal musical concept of early African /Afro-Cuban folk forms is devoid of the idea of metrical and progressive time. And perhaps we can all get along without clave directions in folk music; but none of that implies that we cannot apply the 3/2-2/3 model to a folkloric piece on an analytical basis. (As long as it helps?)

And mind that we are dealing here with Creole folk songs, not some kind of archaic Afro repertoire.

It's hard to beat a direct information on Bomba from Luis Cepeda, at least from my position. But I wouldn't question Jorge either, and obviously he hears a clave in Bomba, too. He can even identify a direction (plus he added to my modest listening experience by mentioning two 3/2 coros, which I had never heard of). Can it be possible that Luis Cepeda was simply unaware of what we observers might call a basic sense of clave in his own music, although he always had it, if only unconsciously? A basic clave feeling that allowed for a more open use (than post-Arsenio Cuban Son)?

Of course you know that I am not trying to put down Cepeda. (I couldn't, even if I wanted to.)

Thomas

P.S.: It took me so long to compose this mail that Jorge had an easy play to overtake me.

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Jorge,

I, too, want to thank you for posting the link.

The dance looks a bit like Columbia ...

Thomas

[congamyk]

I don't understand all of the discussion and over analysis of "single-cell" and "two-celled" construction within African folkloric musical styles.

That is quite obvious.
-David

Ha-ha good one there Dave.
But not understanding describes the copious amount of over analysis.

[Quinto Governor II]

Wow! Thank you, Jorge!

Are these songs on record somewhere?

TA

I believe this is one of them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nuwQ7zefEM

[Light Seeker]

Perhaps more discussion and analysis should be dedicated to the improvised and leadership role of the quinto or perhaps even chordal harmony of modern folkloric music rather than on the clave.

Here's my outsider's perspective: some people here are engaged in a discussion which is bringing them some kind of enjoyment, not bothering anybody, and then someone comes into the discussion to essentially say "don't analyze this, you simpletons; analyze THAT instead." Do you see how that might come off as being a little rude and needlessly antagonistic? I'm sure if you were to start a thread analyzing the quinto or chordal harmony, people would be more than happy to participate in that discussion. Why try to stop other people from discussing what they want to discuss?

[davidpenalosa]

Thomas:>>If we look at a two-bar constellation with the structure of:

| x--x--x- | -x-x--x- |

- we have a 2/3 clave feel, even if 2-part is not "verbally" expressed. That's the way this two-celled figure "translates" into clave. It is not 3/3-clave.<<

Thomas,
I took another look at your previous example. I missed your point about a DISPLACED tresillo, even though it was plain to see. I see it now. Thanks, I take your point. Great analysis!

>>Each time you mention that the 2/3-3/2 concept doesn't apply to folkloric forms, I feel reminded to this guy Cato who persistently finished every speech he held before the Roman senate with the words "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" until everyone just had to be convinced that Carthago must be destroyed. I understand that there are cases where the terminology seems to be inappropriate. But in most cases the concept is there.<<

I am not familiar with Cato, but as I wrote my well-known maxim once again, I did feel like the Cato character in the story you just shared.

I can clearly see how the pattern you wrote:

| x--x--x- | -x-x--x- |

- is in 2-3.

>>The question we have to face is, when does an idea (of clave) become an issue of consideration; and when does this consideration become transformed into a reflex, a feeling; when does the feeling then become a concept of concern, and when does the concern evolve into a obligatory rule that demands expression? And from which point on do we speak about the presence of the idea?<<

Exactly.

>>The majority of Lucumí songs I transcribed has a clearly definable clave direction; some are ambiguous, and it is almost merely a philosophical question whether we should avoid the terminology of 3/2 and 2/3 clave directions altogether.<<

The Lucumí songs begin on either the three-side or the two-side. In other words, they begin on the front side of the clave or bell pattern, or the backside. One can say a song "starts on the two-side". It’s not necessary to say the song is in "2-3". Why unnecessarily bring in a popular music concept?

QUESTION: Have you ever known a Cuban folkloric musician to speak in terms of 3-2, 2-3?

>>Perhaps you can prove that the musicians themselves are not aware of a clave concept.<<

I didn’t say anything about a general clave concept, only the 3-2 2-3 concept in particular.

>>Perhaps you discover that the formal musical concept of early African /Afro-Cuban folk forms is devoid of the idea of metrical and progressive time.<<

I’m certainly not asserting that.

>>And perhaps we can all get along without clave directions in folk music; but none of that implies that we cannot apply the 3/2-2/3 model to a folkloric piece on an analytical basis. (As long as it helps?)<<

There are particular misunderstandings that arise from the use of the 3/2-2/3 concept in folkloric music. This is a subject that warrants its own thread.

>>It's hard to beat a direct information on Bomba from Luis Cepeda, at least from my position. But I wouldn't question Jorge either, and obviously he hears a clave in Bomba, too. He can even identify a direction (plus he added to my modest listening experience by mentioning two 3/2 coros, which I had never heard of). Can it be possible that Luis Cepeda was simply unaware of what we observers might call a basic sense of clave in his own music, although he always had it, if only unconsciously?<<

Absolutely. Luis was the quintessential play-by-feel drummer and I never knew him to be interested in music theory. The bomba song Jorge linked to was clearly in clave in a straight forward way.

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!!!!!

Seriously though, I will withhold my familiar maxim the next time you use 3-2, 2-3 in a discussion about folkloric music. I don’t want to be a complete pedantic bore.

-Cato

[tamboricua]

>>It's hard to beat a direct information on Bomba from Luis Cepeda, at least from my position.

Guys,

Want to make clear that I'm not challenging in any way the late Luis Daniel "Chichito" Cepeda points of view nor of any of this masters "keepers of the flame" of this Puerto Rican traditions. I consider "Chichito" the greatest Primo player ever and I totally agree with his statements. You can hear "Chichito" shining on Grupo Exploración: "Drum Jam" and on Cepeda: "Dancing the Drum", both productions available from our own David Peñalosa's Bembe Records.

http://www.bembe.com

Thomas: Here is another example, El Patio Celestial accompanied by a Seis Holandé. Clave direction? You guys tell me...

http://www.bembe.com/cepeda/samples/Track_4.mp3

Here is my take:

Bomba is an Afro-Puerto Rican folkloric tradition that incorporates: singing, dancing and drumming. A family of many different rhythms. Practicioners of this tradition known this different rhythms as "Sones" or "Seises" de Bomba depending on the region of Puerto Rico. Through the years I had encounter that many people, (some Puerto Ricans included too) when they hear the term Bomba they tend to think of Sicá and that's all about Bomba, wrong!!!

Most of this "Sones" or Seises", using David Peñalosa terminology I"ll consider to be "single celled", Sicá included.

However there are some that break this rule and might be "double celled", for example:

Holandé (Seco + 6/8)
Bambula
Babul
Mariandá (6/4)

The song I commented earlier "Oí una Voz" is accompanied with a Seis Holandé. The way this "Seis" is structured clearly define a clave direction be 3/2 or 2/3 depending on the song that's been accompanied. That said and despite the fact that many of the Bomba repertoire songs might define a clave direction, I don't consider that any Primo player focus or think about phrasing in clave when doing his "repiques".

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio

[Thomas Altmann]

@ Quinto Governor:

Thank you for posting this link! Another example with an audible clave feel.

@ Jorge:

I am familiar with the fact that there are several different styles of Bomba. Isn't there also a style called Bomba Yubá? In 6/8, like the Tumba Francesa rhythm with the same name of Yubá?

However, I was following the common lead to refer to Bomba Sicá when talking about Bomba.

Nevertheless, I must admit that I haven't worked on Puerto Rican music as much as on Cuban music.

By the way; when reading old travel reports of Europeans in the Caribbean colonies, two dances are mentioned throughout: One is called Calinda (Calenda, Caringa), and the other one is Chica. Perhaps this rhythm Chica became Sicá? And perhaps Chica is the common root of at least some of the cinquillo-related rhythms that share a couple of commonalties?

I once had some lessons on Tumba Francesa with Juan Bausta. He is from the Oriente province, not sure whether he's from Santiago de Cuba. But I never use the material, and consequently I forgot almost everything. I'm glad I wrote the parts down, so it will be there whenever I need it. They have a technique totally different from conga playing. And the soloing concept is close to unconceivable (to me).

@David:

The Lucumí songs begin on either the three-side or the two-side. In other words, they begin on the front side of the clave or bell pattern, or the backside. One can say a song "starts on the two-side". It’s not necessary to say the song is in "2-3". Why unnecessarily bring in a popular music concept?

- Because it helps in communicating with musicians who are trained in European music. It even helps me, although I have already become more familiar with African musical concepts, at least as a point of departure.

Brief interlude @congamyk:

And this is also a response to congamyk, provided you are still following this thread at all: It is certainly more "sexy" to be so much inside a musical tradition to be able to rely only on his feeling and his natural reflexes in order to play in a way that proves some love and respect for this tradition. But I cannot deny, and I don't want to deny, that I am a European musician who is active in more than just one stylistic field, but is serious enough to play all these things at least "O.K." Analysis becomes especially inevitable as soon as you start teaching others. Advising students to just play what they feel wouldn't make it. Some of them keep on asking.

So I play on stage, and I discuss on the board.

<CATO'S> QUESTION: Have you ever known a Cuban folkloric musician to speak in terms of 3-2, 2-3?

No. But I haven't asked, either. Basically, we are talking about two different anthropological/ethnological concepts, the emic and the etic. The emic concept suggests an understanding of a culture from within, the etic from the background of an observing outsider. Although the emic approach is certainly more efficient for the ends of a profound understanding of a culture as a whole, the etic offers some assets: Sometimes, when you are in the middle of the woods, you can't see the forest for the trees. And also, the etic approach may work fine in comparative studies.

In other words, just for the sake of comparative analysis, I dare to apply an etic approach by temporarily using the 3/2-2/3 terminology, even if an insider wouldn't do that.

Greetings,

Thomas

[ralph]

"Campo" is a standard....

Los Pleneros de la 21's latest album does a version of "Campo"

http://www.amazon.com/Para-Todos-Ustede ... B0009VAALE

Yerbabuena (the NYC bomba group [b]not the NYC Cuban/Afrobeat fusion group) also does a version on their album "Boricua Roots Music"[/b]

http://www.yerbabuena.biz/


Thomas/Jorge...

Yuba is a common 6/8 bomba although it's not a 6/8 in the way an abakua is or bembe for that matter, it is quite different although it unmistakeably fits into this time structure. Also there are various forms of playing Yuba. Los Hermanos Ayala play a style from Loiza if I am not mistaken which is :

XXXXOO
123456

Others may play it as such (for some reason i believe that in Santurce they may play it this way):

X OOO
123456

There is a youtube vid of LP21 where they play the latter style...once again sorry guys for my notations which probably hurt more than they help...Jorge am I correct in assuming that there are two prominent styles of yuba, one from Loiza and one from Santurce? So if we are talking about yuba, than we are deviating from the cinquillo discussion although one could make the argument that clave is still found in these forms (i.e. Yuba) even though cinquillo is absent......i may have glossed over this in past posts but would yuba make the two cell cut? I imagine so....

[tamboricua]

@ Jorge:

I am familiar with the fact that there are several different styles of Bomba. Isn't there also a style called Bomba Yubá? In 6/8, like the Tumba Francesa rhythm with the same name of Yubá?

Greetings,

Thomas[/quote]

@ Thomas: Yes, there is a Seis de Bomba called Yubá in 6/8. Bomba, especially the traditions from the South and Western parts of the island were heavy influenced by the Tumba Francesa traditions and Afro-Haitians that migrated to Puerto Rico when they defeated the French army.

@ Ralph: The Loíza one you transcribed is known as Corvé. There is also the believe that Rulé in 6/8 is a mere variation of Corvé.

Also we have Yubá Cuarteao. Something like this:

S-OOO- S-O-O-
123456 123456

Yes, Yubá could possibly make the two cell cut....

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio

[davidpenalosa]

>>Why unnecessarily bring in a popular music concept? <<

Thomas: >- Because it helps in communicating with musicians who are trained in European music.
In other words, just for the sake of comparative analysis, I dare to apply an etic approach by temporarily using the 3/2-2/3 terminology, even if an insider wouldn't do that.<<

David: I find the concept of the three-side and the two-side very helpful in understanding not only Cuban music, but rhythms from Brazil and Africa too. That certainly is a case of an etic approach to various folklore. It’s very easy to speak of clave’s two sides, without using the terms 3-2 and 2-3 though. The 3-2, 2-3 terminology signifies harmony’s dominance over rhythm in popular music; the chord progression is the prime referent rather than the rhythmic progression of clave.

A lot of 2-3 popular music has an on-beat emphasis on the downbeat of the two-side. Consequently, many drummers consider this on-beat emphasis to indicate that a rhythm is in 2-3, that is, that an on-beat emphasis is the indicator of "one". I held this misunderstanding for many years myself, and have encountered countless drummers who also have this confusion.

When I began trying to write about the 3-2, 2-3 concept, I started out by repeating the conventional information I had heard and repeated for many years. I ended up like Alice in Wonderland though, falling down a rabbit hole. I’m back now and I have changed. The saying goes – "converts are the most zealous". Perhaps converts are the most obnoxious too.

- David

[tamboricua]

David,

While we are still on this one, I'm wondering if you don't mind sharing with us what were "Chichito's" impressions on the fusion of Sicá and Makuta?

I love how it turned out. IMHO this whole CD smokes and it should be in all percussionists library.

I'm wondering how he reacted to having a Primo and Caja leading at the same time?

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio