African musical traits in African American music

[niallgregory]

David is the bodhran drum used as a timekeeper for singers and other instruments?

Some types of flamenco and Sevillana music in Spain uses castanets, a hand percussion instrument, to keep time for singers and dancers. Although they are not drums, they are percussion instruments used for timekeeping that also can improvise and create complex variations within the timekeeping function. Also drumming on guitars is part of the music of Spain. The origins of the castanet are not clear, various sources speculate on similar precursor instruments used by the Phoenecians, Egyptians, Moors, Greeks, Chinese, and others. But no doubt castanets, along with palillos and other similar percussion instruments, were used in Europe before the Spanish empire colonized the Americas. So yes, it could reasonably be argued that the use of percussion instruments as timekeepers in folkloric music has some European roots as well and is not exclusively African in origin.

Jorge the bodhran was originally used as a time keeping instrument for the uileann pipes etc but since the 1970,s the level of the instrument has risen hugely , it has become a great solo instrument and almost started sounding like a talking drum . A metal bar is on the back of the skin and the skin is moved in and out giving a very tonal sound . check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ChbigufBC8

[congamyk]

I don't see the connection of theories that somehow blues and jazz traits were played in Africa before America.
There is no (zero) emphatic proof of that. It's all based on brief hearsay and theories based on that hearsay.

Surely no-one is suggesting that drums have anything other than an African origin. Yes, I know that the original instruments did not survive the slave trade as has been outlined above, however, no part of the European classical tradition used drums as a continuous 'ostinato' time keeper. Beethoven introduced the timpani to the symphony but it's use was limited to reinforce brass and for colouring, never as a time keeper.

The Bodhran was used in time keeping.
Castinets.... tamborines.
Bass drums kept time in marching bands.
The snare drum was used extensively in Europe. Every battle had marching snare drummers keeping time long before jazz was invented.
I could do an exhaustive study of drums and other percussion being used in Portugal, Spain, Italy even going back to the Roman Empire and create a list so long you wouldn't have time to read it. You are focusing on "drumming" in European classical music exclusively which is not intellectually honest

Good points about time-keeping in European art music. The first written European music (Gregorian chants) indicated pitch, but not rhythm. Rhythm has always been secondary in Western music.

Not sure what this has to do with the discussion.
Europeans were keeping time with drums/percussion long after Gregorian chanting and well before the formation of Jazz.

. . . I don't think descendants of slaves from Congo/Yoruba/Nigeria in central Africa now in N. America centuries later were drawing from Arabic/Islamic micro-tonal nuances. I think they were simply experimenting with bending European notes to create tension, inflect deep feeling and make soulful music.

The first African-born slaves brought to the New World came from the Sudanic belt, where there is a great tradition of stringed instruments, and where one hears distinct blues traits. Those blues traits were well established in what is now the United States, by the time slaves from further down the West African coast, and from the central interior arrived. By the way, the African American banjo is an obvious example of the blending of European and African instrument construction.

Can you please prove that the "first African born slaves that were taken to North America were from the Sudanic belt region as you state?
Can you please prove that the Sudanic belt region produced stringed instruments & music with distinct blues traits prior to 1900 and that slaves from this region that played these stringed instruments in this style were brought to and survived in North America. Also prove that blues traits from that region were well established in what is now the United States prior to 1900.

You want to blur the line between Arabic Africa and sub Saharan Africa in an effort to include Arabic scales & half-tones as some kind of proof that certain African slaves taken from east-central Africa somehow remembered and played exact traits from the Sudanic belt region and that's how blues came along.
Since no African music was notated or written down, this blur allows an Afro-centric re-writing of history.

Later you move on to "re-Africanization" of jazz. You are changing subjects faster than a Jehovah Witness.
In summation my only point was that no African instruments were used in the formation of jazz and rock as the book stated.

[davidpenalosa]

David is the bodhran drum used as a timekeeper for singers and other instruments?

Yes.

The origins of the castanet are not clear

No doubt there is a substantial amount of research on this subject, but we are entering an area where I can only speculate. That said, it's worth noting that the Moroccans play a type of iron "castanets" called the qarqaba.

They are originally from sub-Saharan Africa and are played by descendants of Moroccan slaves.
-David

[congamyk]

. . . other traits (cross-accents, and call and response) existed in European forms of music.

That's a bit vague. It's kind of like me saying melodies and singing are found in African music.
-David

Cross-accenting was used in Western European snare drumming long before jazz was invented.
There are also eastern European musics that drew from Arabic, Indian and Gypsy styles that display cross-accents.

Re: call & response; even the simplistic research reveals that the Gregorian chants mentioned earlier had forms of call and response patterns.
Christian, Catholic and Jewish congregations displayed call and response liturgies and music centuries before jazz was invented.
European and American Choir music, Appalachian folk music, etc.

It is actually quite possible that American call and response patterns in the black churches of New Orleans influenced jazz more than (ancient and mostly unknown to NOLA jazz musicians) African patterns did. New Orleans' black church music influenced jazz formation infinitely more than long forgotten African songs.

[jorge]

...In summation my only point was that no African instruments were used in the formation of jazz and rock as the book stated...

I think my previous response explains clearly why African instruments were not on the scene in the Americas during and for many years after slavery.

...Not a single existing African music style or a single African instrument was used in the development of jazz music...

Congamyk, we agree that jazz is uniquely American and that actual African instruments were not used in the development of jazz music. Here I assume you are referring to past centuries, not continuing development of current jazz which does include traditional African instruments. There is a reason African instruments were not used in the early development of jazz. When African slaves were imported to the Americas, the African musical instruments did not fit in the slave ships, which were pretty tightly packed without them. For a given volume of cargo space, musical instruments would have provided the slavetraders less return on investment than an equal volume of living slaves, even considering that many of the slaves died during the journey. Once in the Americas, slaves who were caught making and playing African drums were often murdered or worse by slaveowners. The slaveowners worried (correctly) that secret forms of communication among the slaves would result from allowing preservation or re-creation of the African instruments, religions, language and music. The same thing happened in Cuba, although not as severely, and the practice of African religions, speaking of African languages, and playing of African music on boxes or furniture survived, more due to the ignorance of the slaveowners than to any humanitarian tendencies they may have had. In north America and later the US, even this crude form of preservation was prohibited, and the African slaves and their descendents were forced to make their religions look as much like the Euro-American religions as possible, to speak English, and to adapt their music to European and American instrumentation. The instrumentation in many cases forced the use of European scales and chords. Limitations of human memory and the rarity of perfect pitch in humans caused the intonations of the African roots to be mostly fit into the scales and chords available on European and American instruments, but some sense of the African intonations remained in what you are calling inflections. So the European and American influences in the development of jazz do not only represent artistic choice, some of those influences were forced by historical events in the Americas.

African American church music and blues were deeply rooted in African music. Just because the African roots of jazz were not incorporated directly from Africa but were passed down in historical stages, incorporating these influences plus European, American and other African diaspora cultural influences along the way, does not diminish the African roots in any way. In fact, having survived through slavery, lynchings, racism, and other attacks over centuries makes the African roots of jazz that much more impressive. No one is denying or diminishing the European and American influences in jazz. But given the Eurocentric perspective that dominates the "American history" that for centuries was and even now continues to be taught in schools across the US, with its lies and glaring omissions of the many many contributions and roles of people of African descent over more than 500 years, it is particularly egregious to try to deny the African roots of jazz music, both instrumental and stylistic. Take people of African descent out of the picture in the Americas and where would jazz and rock and roll be? In fact, where would the US, Cuba, Brazil, all the Americas be? Very different!

[guarachon63]

congamyk wrote:

Re: call & response; even the simplistic research reveals that the Gregorian chants mentioned earlier had forms of call and response patterns.
Christian, Catholic and Jewish congregations displayed call and response liturgies and music centuries before jazz was invented.
European and American Choir music, Appalachian folk music, etc.

Technically, I believe the uniquely "african" call and response is known as "overlapping call and response," where the soloist begins or ends his/her phrase well before the chorus has finished or begun theirs.

[davidpenalosa]

Technically, I believe the uniquely "african" call and response is known as "overlapping call and response," where the soloist begins or ends his/her phrase well before the chorus has finished or begun theirs.

I was looking for the "like" button, but then remembered I'm not on Facebook.

[shor]

One of the main timekeepers in folk music of Spain and Portugal has been the pandereta:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JviMIBRc7-A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxzTDvga67o

From the Iberian peninsula, the frame drum traveled to Ireland.

[davidpenalosa]

I don't see the connection of theories that somehow blues and jazz traits were played in Africa before America. There is no (zero) emphatic proof of that. It's all based on brief hearsay and theories based on that hearsay.

Are you familiar with the field of ethnomusicology? There are people who have devoted their lives to studying this topic. They have written well researched papers, that are peer-reviewed, meaning they have to back up their assertions with documentation, and be prepared to defend their theories. You can’t just make up stuff based on hearsay and be published by a university press.

If you are interested in learning about blues traits in Africa and in the U.S., I recommend Africa and the Blues by Gerhard Kubik. I’ve quoted from the book quite a bit in this thread. Kubik is tops in his field and he’s a good writer, not at all dry.

Can you please prove that the "first African born slaves that were taken to North America were from the Sudanic belt region as you state?

This is not a court of law. I’ve backed up a lot of what I have posted in this thread with documentation. The conversation would be a lot more interesting to me if you did the same. There are volumes and volumes of books on the history the African slave trade. I don’t have any handy at the moment, but we both have the internet.

The Europeans first brought slaves from the Canary Islands and Senegambia of Northwest Africa. They later moved south down the coast and eventually brought most slaves out of the Congo Basin of Central Africa—if you have any documentation that contradicts that very basic summary, I would be very interested in seeing it.

“Senegambia had been the main source of the Atlantic slave trade during the mid-sixteenth century, but after 1640, it probably never furnished more than 10 percent of the trade. Senegambia remained an important source of the slaves brought to Louisiana throughout the eighteenth century”—“African Heritage” Frenchcreoles.com.

Slaves from Senegambia tended to be the house slaves in North America.

This graphic shows that in 1549 the vast majority of slaves brought into Mexico came from the Senegambia and Guinea-Bissau area of Northwest Africa.

This graphic shows that between 1655-1807, slaves from Senegambia made up a much smaller percentage.

Can you please prove that the Sudanic belt region produced stringed instruments & music with distinct blues traits prior to 1900 and that slaves from this region that played these stringed instruments in this style were brought to and survived in North America.

Please see my previously posted map.

Here are some stringed instruments from the Sudanic belt:

I never said that the instruments survived in North America. I did say that the African American banjo is a New World descendent of these Sudanic instruments. It is also obviously a descendent of the European stringed instrument tradition.

Also prove that blues traits from that region were well established in what is now the United States prior to 1900.

No actually, I’m getting bored doing all the work here. Why don’t you back up a couple of your disagreements with me? This conversation would be far more interesting if you did so.

In summation my only point was that no African instruments were used in the formation of jazz and rock as the book stated.

Since I never contradicted your “only point,” your summation must not be addressed to me.

guarachon63 just shot me a link to "African Influence on the Music of the Americas" by Richard Waterman:

http://books.google.com/books?id=yCl8r8-kLb4C&lpg=PA91&ots=hKQfwucmDk&dq=%22overlapping%20call%20and%20response%22&pg=PA81#v=onepage&q&f=false

-David

[niallgregory]

One of the main timekeepers in folk music of Spain and Portugal has been the pandereta:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JviMIBRc7-A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxzTDvga67o

From the Iberian peninsula, the frame drum traveled to Ireland.

This has never been proven and is only one excepted version of the origins of our national drum . Large round implements used to drain turf where hung over fire places and used to drain turf / peat etc and its very likely the bodhran has its origins in this work tool . But the beauty of it all is that we can never speak in absolutes when it comes to the origins of music .

[Joseph]

Another good reference (through not a scholarly treatment) is Blues People - Negro Music in White America by LeRoi Jones aka Amiri Baraka. Published 1963.

"Jazz is commonly thought to have begun around the turn of the century, but the musics derived from it are much older. Blues is the parent of all legitimate jazz, and it is impossible to say exactly how old blues is - certainly no older than the presence of Negroes in the United States. It is a native American music, the product of a black man in this country: or to put it more exactly the way I have come to think about it, blues could not exist if the African captives had not become American captives" P17

" Another important aspect of African music found very readily in the American Negro's music is the antiphonal singing technique. A leader sings a theme and a chorus answers him. These answers are usually comments on the leaders theme or comments in the answers themselves in improvised verses. The amount of improvisation depends on how long the chorus wishes to continue. And improvisation, another major facet of African music, is certainly one of the strongest survivals in American Negro music. The very character of the first work songs suggest that they were largely improvised. And, of course, the very structure of jazz is the melodic statement with an arbitrary number of improvised answers or comments on the initial theme." pp 26-27

"The very nature of slavery in America dictated the way in which African culture could be adapted. Thus, a Dahomey river god ceremony had no chance of survival in this country at all unless it was incorporated into an analogous rite that was present in the new culture - which is what happened. The Christians in the New World called it baptism.
....And in music: where the use of the African drum was strictly forbidden, other percussive devices had to be found, like the empty oil drums that led to the development of the West Indian steel bands. Or the metal wash basin turned upside down and floated in another basin that sounds, when beaten, like an African hollow-log drum. The Negro's way in this part of the Western world was adaptation and reinterpretation. The banjo (an African word) is an African instrument, and the xylophone, now used in all Western concert orchestras, was also brought over by the Africans. But the survival of the system of African music is much more significant than the existence of a few isolated and finally superfluous features." pp27-28

[davidpenalosa]

. . . the survival of the system of African music is much more significant than the existence of a few isolated and finally superfluous features."

Well put.

"Cultural transmission works through codes, and the individual can switch . . . from the auditory to the motional, to the visual" (Kubik p. 62).

"The work of black quilt-makers like . . . Amanda Gordon of Vicksburg, MS, suggest a trace of Mande [Senegambia] visual influence"—"Rhythmized Textiles," Flash of the Spirit by Robert Farris Thompson (1983: 221).

The ring shout is probably the oldest surviving African American performance tradition on the North American continent. This compelling fusion of counterclockwise dancelike movement, call-and-response singing, and percussion of hand clapping and/or stomping "tresillo" on a wooden floor is clearly African in its origins and most salient features. Youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WduFU2dhJiw&feature=share

[DJBakan]

Just to add what David said. This video explain about the "Pray Houses" and the music "ringshout". you can jump directly to minute 3:00 to hear the music and dancing but is nice you watch the hole video to understand better what is going on.

http://youtu.be/KmmTMg3e5Uo

DJBakan

[burke]

Hey David ... how did you get a picture of my Banjo Uke?!

PS. Got the "Matrix" for my B-day - haven't gotten far but enjoying it.

Cheers

Darrell

[shor]

This has never been proven and is only one excepted version of the origins of our national drum . Large round implements used to drain turf where hung over fire places and used to drain turf / peat etc and its very likely the bodhran has its origins in this work tool . But the beauty of it all is that we can never speak in absolutes when it comes to the origins of music .

The origin of the bodhran drum is Irish, I was referring to the use as a frame drum.