Pioneers on Afro and Caribbean Percussion

[davidpenalosa]

Dr. Zaragemca:
"the improvisational lead ,(or languages),in the Timbales was already set up in Cuba,before Tito Puente was born."

Hi Dr.,
Tito Puente developed the improvisational language of timbales further by incorporating rumba quinto vocabulary. This was not a part of timbales before the 1940's. There are others who contributed to this evolution, but from what I can discern from the recordings of this era, Puente took it a big step further. Listen to his "In Percussion" where he and Mongo use the same rumba rhythmic motifs.

Dr. Zaragemca:
"What is the drum rudiments which you are talking about?"

Listen to the intro on his "4x2" on "Top Percussion". I believe those rolls come out of the snare drum tradition. Puente played in a more busy fashion (as opposed to the more typico style expressed by Guillermo Barreto or Manny Oquendo), filling up the space between the essential strokes with secondary strokes. In other words, he would do rolls out of which the fundamental strokes were accented. Later of course, this approach was taken further with the contributions of Changuito.

-David

[zaragemca]

David,greeting,that stuff and many more was observed by Tito Puente from the great Timbalero Silvano 'Chori' Shueg, in Marianao's Rumba Palace,(even Tito Puente later did a comment in relation to the amazing speed and craftmanship of this Timbalero),this place was a 'must to see show', visited by a lot of Hollywood starlites,Cad Calloway,Marlon Brandon,Louis Armstrong,Frank Sinatra,Xavier Cugat,etc., would go to this place to see 'Chori' show..Also the Timbalero,'Acerina' which took the Danzon to Mexico in 1913, had a similar show causing a furor in Mexico,( he did his musical career in Mexico), also the best Timbalero in NY. in th 1930's,'Montesinos' ,(the director of The Happy Boys),and teacher of Tito Puente in NY., was doing this type of show with his Band,(there was a comment by the cuban violinist, 'Iznaga' in relation to this,(he was the director of 'La Siboney Orquestra in NY., at that time).This Timbaleros could easily use rudiments from drum-set, becouse they were using snare-dum in the set up,(which was a necessity at that time in order to play differents shows and music like, Tango, Waltz,Paso Doble,etc..I have been in that situation myself when playing with show bands where I have to play Timbales with an snare drum on the side.,( or sometime the whole drum-set).Dr.Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1119368925

[davidpenalosa]

Dr.,
Yes, I too have used snare in conjunction with timbales. It's been done for years. I would be interested in hearing any recordings of timbaleros who used rolls as a means of embellishing quinto vocabulary prior to Tito Puente.

-David

[zaragemca]

David,I would understand if you don't know that the soloing used in the Timbales,(in Cuba),came from incorporating and observing both the quinto,and bongos riffs of the percussionist,also the percusion riffs of the Marching-Bands,(which had specific moment in the songs for a few bars of percussion riffs).But I don't know what is the furor about,Tito Puente himself had always given credit to the cuban musicians and percussionists which he had the opportunity to meet for what he knows about cuban-music,( becouse he is one of the musicians which never accepted the word 'Salsa'.Dr.Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1119382901

[davidpenalosa]

Dr.,
Why would you assume I don't know the history of the development of timbale solos? I know that Tito learned from listening to the Cuban masters, but he also took it a step further. I am saying that Tito Puente was the earliest recorded timbalero to use quinto vocabulary to the extent he did. You can hear his departure from the tipico style of soloing as early as 1949-50 (Mambos with Puente <Tumba CD 011>). However, there's nothing that compares with his approach in 1958-59 with his records "Top Percussion" and "In Percussion". If you can site earlier recordings where I can hear someone else take a similar approach, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I stand by my assertion.

-David

[zaragemca]

There are a lot of shows which were performed in Cuba by Timbaleros,before and after that date,(call Fidel Castro) and tell him to show it to you, hes the one which have the key.Dr. Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

Ummmmmm, that's sort of funny. I guess you have no examples to back yourself up.

[zaragemca]

I never said to anybody that I have a warehouse with all music and shows performed in Cuba and the U.S.,but when somebody is trying to debate a subject,they need to do research in order to have a general information,(not a limited one).I already said by,(naming people,places,time,and historicals details),from where things were comming,it is not a 'passional' opinion without knowing the other side. Dr.Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1119453515

[davidpenalosa]

I think it's obvious to most that I have done my research. To suggest otherwise is rather silly.

Dr.Zaragemca:
"I never said to anybody that I have a warehouse with all music and shows performed in Cuba and the U.S."

me:
You don't need a warehouse. All you need to be aware of the fundamental "classic" Afro-Cuban recordings. With nearly all of them out now on CD, I imagine most people involved in this forum own these recordings. Apparently you have some gaps in your collection and I would say some gaps in your knowledge as well.:rock: That's OK. We can all learn more, myself included. What's tiring is your assumption that you know more than other participants in this forum. You assume too much.
-David

[Ivan]

We can all learn more, myself included. What's tiring is your assumption that you know more than other participants in this forum. You assume too much.
-David

Hi David, welcome to the forum... I just wanted to drop a line and say I would agree with your quote...

Regardless of how much one knows, keeping an open mind makes this world a better place to live...

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Ivan,
Thank you for your welcome and support. I appreciate it.

-David

[zaragemca]

Greeting,My assumption?..,I'm all the time in this and other forums,rectifying misconceptions,and misinformation,without counting the stuff which I had observed in articles and some books which I don't know from where it comes from,( of course there are details which escape to people which have never been in Cuba),but I have witnessed a lot of 'passional statements' without the knowledge, it is not a crime not to know something,but we could accept with gratitud when sombody is putting us in the right direction.Dr Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1119475962

[davidpenalosa]

I have not felt gratitude from you for correcting you. A thank you would be nice.

[davidpenalosa]

:;):

[ABAKUA]

What's tiring is your assumption that you know more than other participants in this forum. You assume too much.
-David

Thank God someone else has noticed this from the self proclaimed Dr.


Assume too much is exactly what he does... I assume he knows not who you are and what you are responsible for either David.

I grew tired of his self inflated non accomplished ego some time ago and just shake my head and laugh to myself at the majority of his 'holy'er than thou' type non helpful posts.



Edited By ABAKUA on 1119524306