SF Drumming Scene - Fight for the Right

[109-1176549166]

...the Haight still represents those ideals for many people, and it is exactly that ideal that the sign I took was against...

........thats why I took the sign, thats why I will always take the sign, I took it for me, I took it for you, and I took it for everyone...

there are so many many places in this city where you can't play your conga outside, they far outnumber the ones where you can.

fair enough drumming can be noise pollution, cars are noise pollution too. However, the history and legacy of the Haight street exists, freedom and music. If you don't want to hear drumming in the park what are you doing living in the Haight?

I would never think of playing in a park in Pacific Heights or taking a sign from that neighborhood...........but the Haight? of course! If I don't continue the push for freedom and music in a neighborhood whose history represents this very same ideal.....................

bongosnotbombs,

This isn't to condemn you or anyone, so please don't ever take this as a personal afront from me. Also, please don't see me as a self-righteous preacher on a soapbox. I'm as flawed or more flawed than anybody else. Take it instead as a sober advise from a peace-loving and civic-minded citizen, a friend and a drumming brother.

Having said this, I'd like to say that, speaking only for myself, I wouldn't have taken the sign down and kept it at my home. First of all, if it were an official city sign, then what you did may at least be a misdemeanor (I'm not sure if it's a felony). Don't worry, I won't rat out on you. LOL!!! :laugh:

If only a private person whimsically nailed it to the post, then your action may have been justified. Even then, I wouldn't take things into my own hands and remove it. I might call the city and inquire if the sign were really official. And if it weren't official, I'd request the city to have it removed.

The point I'm driving at is that governments are created and laws (flawed as they may be in practice) are instituted for the "common good" of society and to establish and maintain public order. (Come to think of it, who among us isn't flawed. Everyone of us is without any exception.) If we allow all people to take the law into their own hands and justify their behavior with some arbitrary rationalization, then will eventually have anarchy.

It's funny how people who find fault with governments and laws, turn to the very same governments and laws when they're rights and/or properties are violated.

I realize that you took the sign "for me, for you and for everyone". I know that you were just being considerate and your intentions were good, perhaps even noble in your mind. But, not to scold you, did you even attempt to ask me before taking down the sign? And not to sound ungrateful, IMO, you presumed everyone's consent on the matter, including mine.

By "everyone", I'm assuming that you mean percussion enthusiasts. But, do you, me and percussion enthusiasts comprise a big majority at Haight? Or just a small minority? Regardless, what right does anybody have in taking down the sign. It's not only about respecting the law and the city. It's also about respecting other people's property (the sign) and tolerance (other people's right for a quieter neighborhood). As I've said before, tolerance is a 2-way street and in a conflict between "sound" (noise, if you will) and "no sound" (quiet), having "no sound" will almost always win.

IMO, your analogy between drumming noise and car noise is weak. Cars (motor vehicles in general) are considered a necessity by the great majority in society. Without motor vehicles, most economies that rely on them will literally grind to a halt. And people will eventually have nothing to eat. On the other hand, drumming surely isn't; it's a dispensable noise. So, guess which noise pollution will win if people had to vote for only one?

You say that "the history and legacy of the Haight street exists, freedom and music". For you and me, it may be so. But, is it for others or at least the majority of the people living on Haight.

Digressing, here are thoughts on the historical "Summer of Love":

Other than the word "love", the word "freedom" (more accurately, "true freedom") is another one that's all-too-often misunderstood, misused and abused. Freedom, properly understood, is never the same as "license", that is, the ability to do whatever what wants regardless of the consequences to oneself or to others.

Freedom is not absolute. It is limited by the requirements of the "common good". Also, with freedom comes responsibility. One can't just do whatever one wants without feeling and being responsible for its consequences.

You also said, "If you don't want to hear drumming in the park what are you doing living in the Haight?" I've heard this argument too many times before. IMO, it's bordering on arrogance and lack of sensitivity. It's like being told that if you don't like the laws of a city, state or country, then what are you doing living in that city, state or country? Well, you can always petition to change the existing legislation, right?

The cold reality is that drumming was never an intrinsic part of Haight. In other words, until the "Summer of Love" event descended on Haight during the 60s, I don't think were people already drumming there? So what gives people the right to impose on others a culture that wasn't always there to begin with and was fleeting to say the most? Moreover, what's to stop the other camp from wanting to going back to the quiet, drum-free atmosphere prior to the "Summer of Love"?

Please don't ever get me wrong! I absolutely love drumming! But, I would never like to do it where it would make the life of fellow human being miserable. I'd like that person to like the sound of my drums and my music, not hate them as a result of my self-centeredness and inconsiderateness. As much as I expect other people to respect my right, I have to respect other peoples rights as well. Respect is a 2-way street, not just a 1-way street. We're back to the simple application of the Golden Rule: "Don't do to others what you don't wan't them to do to you."

Life involves a series of daily compromises or give-and-take. If you want drumming to return to Haight, do it civilly and legally--by having recourse to the law. If do have recourse to the law and you still fail, it could just be a temporary setback. On the other hand, your petition may never see the light of day 'cause other people just can't stand hours of non-stop drumming.

If this is the case, then let's admit it: the people have spoken. And let's respect that, leave it at that, let go and move on. It's not the end of the world. I'm sure that there are alternative places for us to play our drums where it's wanted, such as in a conga school or at other places or parks where it's legally OK for an individual or a group to bang all day on the drums.



Edited By mjtuazon on 1187805195

[109-1176549166]

I don’t want to mislead you about the hippy community. It’s not a commune, but a community of perhaps a few thousand self-styled “anarchist” private land owners. They created their own schools, clinics and community centers. It is like the Amish in its cultish quality. But the Amish deny themselves material comforts. The elders of the hippy community are self-indulgent aging baby-boomers. Just an observation.

David,

Don't worry. Knowing man's weak fallen nature, I never had any such illusions. And I'm not surprised and more so shocked. Nothing shocks me anymore, but, at the same time, I'm thankful that I haven't turned into a cynical person. Nevertheless, thanks for the heads up.



Edited By mjtuazon on 1187756489

[davidpenalosa]

No doubt the demographics in the Haight have changed over the past 20 years. I mean, what does one of those Victorians go for these days? 2 or 3 million?!
-DP

[jmdriscoll]

Ahhh yes... nothing like the act of partaking before sitting down and working out your thoughts and emotions on an instrument so melodic and expressive.. Oops! did I just say that?!?

So there's this doctor who works at Harvard name Dr Grinspoon. He's a public advocate. He's got this site that he hosts. Pretty interesting reads. Awful contrary to the information that is constantly fed to the masses.


not trying to open a pandora's box here people... but just a few interesting articles on the relationship between the two objects pictured above..

http://www.marijuana-uses.com/essays/013.html

http://www.marijuana-uses.com/essays/028.html

http://www.marijuana-uses.com/essays/032.html

that sign thing is pretty funny too!! :laugh:

[bongosnotbombs]

I have every intention of returning the sign to the park once I make the necessary corrections to it.

Stay tuned..

Manny, come on man, lighten up a little.

[109-1176549166]

bongosnotbombs,

Lighten up a little? Why, didn't you notice all the smiley emoticons beside all my cuss words? LOL!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Seriously, "bravo" for intending to return the sign, bro!



Edited By mjtuazon on 1187805263

[Congadelica]

I look forward to seeing the modified notice going back .

Manny chill man we is brothers here of the drum kind . religion and polotics dont mix in a multi cultural forum , Dont take that as a rebutal your past life may be very interesting , come to think of it so is mine but thats for another forum .

I love the interweb for all its quirks and people

[Amber]

Hi,

sorry for jumping abruptly in that ongoing interesting discussion.
"Man' s falling nature is a fact we must accept. It is useless and IMO dangerous to try to eredicate this strong force of vitality. What we can do and should do is to BALANCE the "inner pig". Having said this lets have a look to the point of the thread. I understand completely that it is not possible to exercise on drums for hours in an appartment with neighbours around. Same with children, they can' t play football in the flat. But why not allow it in the park, lets say until 9 pm? There should be places to make noise and also possibilities to freak out a bit from time to time. Let's give the beast what it wants to calm it down instead of prohibiting and reglementing us into a sterile world.

:p Amber

[109-1176549166]

Manny chill man we is brothers here of the drum kind .

Congadelica,

But I am! Can't you sense it? I admonish super gently, my brother! :;): :laugh:



Edited By mjtuazon on 1187808817

[Congadelica]

Manny chill man we is brothers here of the drum kind .

Congadelica,

But I am! Can't you sense it? I admonish super gently, my brother! :;): :laugh:

I feel it bro :p

[Congadelica]

Ahhh yes... nothing like the act of partaking before sitting down and working out your thoughts and emotions on an instrument so melodic and expressive.. Oops! did I just say that?!?

So there's this doctor who works at Harvard name Dr Grinspoon. He's a public advocate. He's got this site that he hosts. Pretty interesting reads. Awful contrary to the information that is constantly fed to the masses.


not trying to open a pandora's box here people... but just a few interesting articles on the relationship between the two objects pictured above..

http://www.marijuana-uses.com/essays/013.html

http://www.marijuana-uses.com/essays/028.html

http://www.marijuana-uses.com/essays/032.html

that sign thing is pretty funny too!! :laugh:

Interesting reading ???

[109-1176549166]

religion and polotics dont mix in a multi cultural forum ,

congadelica,

Not necessarily. IMO, saying that "religion and politics" doesn't mix in a multi-cultural form" has become the "kneejerk", automatic response most people make when faced with these 2 issues. This response, in turn, is automatically swallowed by others "hook, line & sinker" without sufficient critical thought or analysis.

If you stop and really think about it, it's not impossible: Religion and politics can mix in a multi-cultural form, if we have enough tolerant, non-judgmental people who view various--even conflicting--religions and political stands not as mutually-exclusive or "black and white" ideas (I'm right, so therefore you're wrong) but rather possessing varying degrees or kernels of truth (I have some knowledge of the truth; you have some knowledge of the truth; we all have some knowlege of the truth).

I've personally seen it successfully done in World Religion classes.

But, you're right. This is a topic that is more appropriately tacked in other forums. So, this is all I have to say here. Nothing further.



Edited By mjtuazon on 1187832994

[jorge]

I don't think it is appropriate to completely shun "politics" in this forum. Historically, the drum has played a major role in the politics of liberation and the struggle against slavery, racism, and political repression in Cuba, and in other places. For that reason, I urge you all to accept political discussions when they are related to both the drum as well as past or current day liberation struggles against slavery, racism, and political repression. If people want to have other political discussions that are not directly related to the drum and its related history, they could be included in the forum under the Miscellanea heading. When discussions digress into unrelated politics, the thread can be moved to Miscellanea without hard feelings. Rather than hijack this thread, I have started a new thread on this topic, so we can continue any discussion of this topic (which goes far beyond the SF drumming scene) to see what people think.

[Congadelica]

ok guys,

For me myself and I, I do have strong feelings on racism slavery religion and polotics ,as a white anglo saxon male with a inherited historical background I have an empathy for things on this very subject.
The path I have chosen is controversial in terms of what the system has conditioned me to believe. I have learned many things and met many people of all walks of life , Traveled to most continents of the world connecting with people .
When I say that I dont think this "forum" not "form" manny is the place for this type of discussion I mean the particular thread of topic .

If there was a section on this forum to talk political or religious topics I may decide to partake in debate , However It is somewhat irritating for me to read a thread on the beloved drum we play , only to find its gone all political . it can work but not on the general section of this forum .

I in no way do i want to offend any of you guys I fell love and happiness for all .

Marco

[109-1176549166]

Congadelica,

Don't sweat it, bro! I'm not in the least offended. I'm certainly not advocating that we should talk about religion and/or politics in isolation on this thread. I'm talking more about the history and the use of drums as a religious and/or political tool. There's no denying that the history of drumming is replete with the connection between drumming and religion and/or politics.

Heck, if you go back and really analyze many of the previous posts on this thread, this thread is evidently replete with political messages, either implied or direct:

- "So as a proud citizen of the Haight Ashbury community, swelling with civic pride I performed my public duty... - bongosnotbombs (Aug 19)

Note also the picture of "cannabis sativa" (scientific term for "marijuana") in the background. Question: Was the picture of "the plant" intentional? Was bongosnotbombs trying to make a subtle political statement? Or even an innocent medical statement? Either way, what does the subject of marijuana, even if legal, have to do with drumming? 1st incident of threadjacking?

- "YOU ARE A REAL AMERICAN!" - congamyk (Aug. 19)

- "Thanks congamyk!" - bongosnotbombs (Aug. 19). bongosnotbombs thanking congamyk for calling him a "real American".

- "BNB . way to go fella. you have a nice couple of plants there too buddy" - Congadelica (Aug. 20). 2nd incident of threadjacking?

- "In true San Franciscan fashion, a fellow citizen, witnessing my service to the public remarked to me:" - bongosnotbombs (Aug. 19)

- "FIGHT THE POWER" - written on a sign shared by ABAKUA (Aug. 20)

- "Agreed! Seems like a nice crop!" - ABAKUA (Aug. 20). 3rd incident of threadjacking?

- "Yeah, nice plants" - Charangaman (Aug. 20). 4th incident of threadjacking?

- "Just doing my part to provide some medicine to all those suffering with glaucoma and eating disorders...We are allowed to grow up to 10 plants legally with a growers card here in wonderful California." - bongosnotbombs (Aug. 20). 5th incident of threadjacking?

What has this got to do directly with drumming? I know that bongosnotbombs later said that he's going to use income to buy a new set of drums in the future, but still what's the DIRECT connection to drumming? Anybody can come up with any rationalization that there is similar to the connection between drumming and religion and/or politics.

- "Way to go BNB! I like to see acts of civil disobediance for a cause! If you can't drum in a park in SF where can you play at? That's just the man trying to keep us down. Don't give up, you struck a blow for all of us!" - Jongo (Aug. 20)

- "this is a 'free' country" - JohnnyConga (Aug. 20)

- "btw I think I am going to take Olsongo's hint and repost the signs after I doctor them up...As for the plants, I am a legal grower in the state of California and my crop iswithin legal limits." - bongosnotbombs (Aug. 20). 6th incident of threadjacking?

- "I wanna come live in Cali BNB .......I did not know it was legal to grow plants anyplace in the US mmmmmm. interesting" - Congadelica (Aug. 20). 7th incident of threadjacking?

- As for the plants, I am a legal grower in the state of California and my crop iswithin legal limits....Dam! that sounds good, I wish it were like that around my way. I may be new to congas but I can get at least half a bucket out of those plants ( in my old days of course ) What strain is that? looks more indica dominant though. Just kidding now back to the drum topics" - Tone74 (Aug 20). 8th incident of threadjacking?

At least Tone74 was honest enough to admit that he veered off the thread and subsequently tried to return to it.

- "Anyway, eventually we'll all have to rise up against our government. The longer we wait the harder it'll be on all of us." - windhorse (Aug. 20)

- "Its so wild, in the heart of the Haight, to have such a sign in a place known the world around for the free love and music that changed the world in the 60's. How far we have fallen. We will rise again, in time." - blango (Aug. 21)

- however it still happened, and it happened here, the Haight still represents those ideals for many people, and it is exactly that ideal that the sign I took was against...thats why I took the sign, thats why I will always take the sign, I took it for me, I took it for you, and I took it for everyone...the history and legacy of the Haight street exists, freedom and music...but the Haight? of course! If I don't continue the push for freedom and music in a neighborhood whose history represents this very same ideal... - bongosnotbombs (Aug. 21)

- "So there's this doctor who works at Harvard name Dr Grinspoon. He's a public advocate. He's got this site that he hosts. Pretty interesting reads. Awful contrary to the information that is constantly fed to the masses." - jmdriscoll (Aug. 22). 9th incident of threadjacking?

- "I have every intention of returning the sign to the park once I make the necessary corrections to it." - bongosnotbombs (Aug 22)

- "I look forward to seeing the modified notice going back." - Congadelica (Aug. 22)

If all of the above direct quotations doesn't hint or overtly talk about politics and political activism, I don't know what does.

Congadelica, then you appear to contradict yourself by saying on the last post (Aug 23), "When I say that I dont think this "forum" not "form" manny is the place for this type of discussion I mean the particular thread of topic. If there was a section on this forum to talk political or religious topics I may decide to partake in debate , However It is somewhat irritating for me to read a thread on the beloved drum we play , only to find its gone all political . it can work but not on the general section of this forum."

And here are the real bombs (no pun intended) on this post: (1) The User ID of the bro who started this thread is "bongosNOTBOMBS"; and (2) His motto on his electronic signature is: "Make Beats not Bombs"!

Aren't both this user ID and motto political statements and calls to political activism? Moreover, who among all the subscribers to this forum have User ID's that doesn't have a religious and/or political connotation?

C'mon, Congadelica! Either we're blind or dense or we're hypocrites! This reply is addressed directly to you. So, I absolutely don't mean to offend anyone else, particularly those brothers whose statements I've quoted above, much less you.

I'm merely calling a spade a spade. I'm just citing the facts (evidences), bros, just the plain facts!



Edited By mjtuazon on 1187930125