Re: African musical traits in African American music
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:50 pm
davidpenalosa wrote:blavonski wrote:Swing is not an original African Rhythmic element introduced to Jazz. Swing is a uniquely African American creation as a result of the African rhythmic conception in the americas, USA in particular adapting itself to european american musical forms. And before it began to swing, it was more of shuffle and or rocking feeling as a result of drummers like Baby Dodds and Zutty Singleton going from Strong beats 1&3 to weak beats 2&4 with added eigth notes. And it was brought to the fore in american popular music by Louis Armstrong. And as Mr. Armstrong has demonstrated, it is more feeling than any musicaologist can precisely define in strict musical terms.
OK, so it’s a feeling (agreed), that musicologists can’t define, but you can, and your definition excludes music from Africa.
“SWING: An intangible rhythmic momentum in jazz. …Swing defies analysis; claims to its presence may inspire arguments. But it is meaningful as a general concept: in swing and bebop, ‘swinging’ triplet subdivisions of quarter notes (or of eighth notes at slow tempos, halves at fast tempos) contrast with duple subdivisions . . .”—The New Harvard Dictionary of Music (1986: 818).
blavonski wrote:Like wise the Afro-cuban swing feeling is uniquely its own creation.
Actually certain aspects of Afro-Cuban music share the same qualities of swing as straight ahead jazz. But yeah, generally speaking, the two have many significant differences.blavonski wrote:. . . it is interesting to note that you repeatedly refer to Jazz rhythmic elements as if they lie outside of an African rhythmic concept. .
No, you have misunderstood me. I was attempting to differentiate between those African rhythmic elements, which are a part of jazz (say, up to the post bop era), and those African rhythmic elements, which are not.blavonski wrote:. . . it is obvious to me that your relation to and understanding of jazz music is an academic one or maybe also casual listener.
OUCH!!!
Now, you are fighting dirty! You’ve called me an academic, who can’t play!! It’s “obvious” you say? I’m afraid your powers of perception have failed you, because you were not able to perceive a lifetime of playing music, including jazz. May I suggest that we stick to the substance of the thread topic, rather than attempting to deny the other’s credentials?blavonski wrote:Do you play Jazz, drums or any other instrument?
Yes. By the way, I first performed “Footprints” in the 1970s, on flute, and later, on percussion.blavonski wrote:. . . I can answer, refute that statement with one instrument and that is the Hi-Hat. Traditonally it guides the rhythm on Beats 2&4, a binary division of the 4/4 meter and it is repeated, it is continuous.
It’s true what you say. The repeating hi-hat only makes your case in the most general sense. If you listen to highlife, juju, samba, and son montuno, you will hear several significant shared African rhythmic elements not present in jazz. I thought this was obvious.blavonski wrote:And concerning your mention of counterpoint, to my knowledge, it is a European compositional, melodic device/technique.
Yes, but most music terminology originated from Western music traditions. Do you have a better term for the interaction of contrary attackpoints as expressed in African and Diaspora musics?blavonski wrote:As I understand it, the clave whether 3:2 or 2:3 is divided over two bars 4 beats per measure. By contrast, african american 3 over 2 patern is divided and contained with in one bar, 4 beats per measure algamation.
The three-over-two cross rhythm is like you say, one bar (if we write clave in two bars). The "one bar" structure pervades African music, as well as Afro-Cuban music. The bass line in Mongo’s “Afro Blue” is an obvious example.
Gotta go. I have a busy day ahead of me.
-David
Hi David,
First, I want to write that, I didn't call you an acedemic who can't play, I stated what I percieved your relationship to JAZZ to be and I made no mention of your playing abilities; I asked a direct question. But by the above recent post I think I was half correct in my presumption. So, are you a classically trained musician?
Now, concerning your responses to what I wrote, you've done a nice of job evading and misconstruing some important points I made.
1.)"OK, so it’s a feeling (agreed), that musicologists can’t define, but you can, and your definition excludes music from Africa."
I didn't attempt to define Swing, I simply stated its proginator, that being African Rhythm concepts, and I certainly didn't eliminate African sources from that. Why on earth would i do that?... it's my whole contention here. You've misconstrued my statement that, swing is an African american creation not an African one. That is to say, Africans didn't bring the finished concept of swing with them to the Americas.
2. " It’s true what you say. The repeating hi-hat only makes your case in the most general sense. If you listen to highlife, juju, samba, and son montuno, you will hear several significant shared African rhythmic elements not present in jazz. I thought this was obvious."
Oh come on man, really ! My mention of the Hi-hat refuted your claim on the money. It represents what you said was not present in Jazz....A General sense? Well, if you think that, then,with all due respect, you're understanding of Jazz is bereft of some important fundamentals here. And what does son Montuno, samba and highlife have to do with the point I adressed that you made regarding the lack of non-african rhythmic elements in Jazz?
3.)" Yes, but most music terminology originated from Western music traditions. Do you have a better term for the interaction of contrary attackpoints as expressed in African and Diaspora musics?"
yes, Polyrhythms.
I'll end here, because I have nothing to add really to what I previously wrote, especially given the fact that your arguments to them are a bit weak. Good luck measuring and attempting to find as well as define what has always been there.
Good Vibrations,
Blavonski