congaplace.com

Right, I know some of you might think it puerile or tiresome, but I cannot resist pondering this question, and I don't recall seeing it before on the forum.

Two guys come to mind immediately for me - Anga and Giovanni. Now while I only know their playing from CDs and videos, I would say that Giovanni has the greatest TECHNIQUE of the two, e.g. he can probably execute rudiments faster than anyone in the world. What about looking at them from the angle of musicality? Both have beautiful musical imagination but Anga plays in wider musical contexts than Giovanni - this may involve MORE musical imagination. Implications for best conguero status? Though ecclecticism is in one sense a strength, it also means that the player can be less definitive, less the conguero of congueros. How would the Marlborough Man have ever become advertising legend if the backdrop changed every poster, one week desert America, next urban Japan?

So Giovanni wins!

This is a question that could not truly be answered in my opinion. I will give it up to Gio and Anga and Viscaino and Roberto Quintero and there are so many Great players today. I heard of a blind drummer from West Africa that because he is blind he has been playing his whole life(tribal drummer) that he can play up to 10 drums at once. So how do you judge who is the greatest Today? or Yesterday. I would say Mongo Santamaria based upon his body of work or Ray Baretto too,based on body of work(he's on over 1,000 albums). How many is Anga or even Gio on? 20 25? So what makes the GREATEST conguero is what I'm asking you? At your Service....JC JOHNNY CONGA....

I agree JC. It difficult to say "who" is the greatest conguero then and now. Gio is a monster on the congas and bongos. Mongo is my favorite conguero. Ray Barretto has withstanded time and genre (he's the man that influenced me to get into playing congas). Roberto Quintero is an awesome conguero. I seen him at "WILLIE STEAK HOUSE" up in the Bronx, fantastic conguero. Lil Johnny Rivero is another master at his craft. I also seen Lil Johnny at "WILLIE STEAK HOUSE", that's a bad Mo Fo. There are great congueros out there and I give them all prop's. I just hope I can be as good of a percussionist as any of these Master's are or were.

I first met Little Johnny when he was 8 years old and jamming with his Pops and us in Central Park back in 72. He was a bad little Mo fo then, then he went on to play at the age of 14 with Gus Colon, and the rest is history. I'm a bad mo fo too....smile.....but hey...I've been playing for more than 30 years I better be good. But no where near Mongo-Ray-Gio and a few others I gotta give it up to. Just a reminder, MY skool ain't closed yet!.....It's still open and still kickin butt!.........I may not be an Innovator,but I'm a #### good Imitator!.......At your Service....JC JOHNNY CONGA....

This will echo JC's message big time. I wrote it a couple of days ago but had a hard time posting so I saved it... might as paste it in:
dude, is giovanni really better than tata
guines...mongo santamaria.....papin?
At one point players reach the top... they become so
good that they are the best in the world....all of
them.
At that point you can no longer compare them because
their playing is as unique as their personalities and
encompasses so much more than speed or eclecticism or
technique.... all they have left to compete against
at that point is themselves.
-bb

Hi everyone, nice topic to discuss. I feel that Gio and Anga are the 2 players with the fastest and best technique. Have any of you seen the video with Giovanni with Steve Gadd? Gio is a bad timbalero also, ....incredible.

Speed is glamourous and so we discuss Gio and Anga but the amount of work they have done is very limited compared to Barretto or even Poncho Sanchez. Who can sing, arrange AND play congas as well as Poncho Sanchez right now? Nobody! Who can play congas, timbales AND drum set as well as Changuito/Quintana? NOBODY! I look for versatility and MUSICALITY in a musician.

I submit my opinion in humility and respect for all congueros and the music.

I'm sorry for my ignorance but who is "ANGA"???? ???

Hola soy brasiliano e respeito de Anga e Giovani acho que Giovani obtem mas técnica e Anga mais musicalidade...Pero que seja isso... saudaciones Brasil
meu site :www.nandopercussion.hpg.com.br
e-mail: nando_percussion@hotmail.com

"Angá" is Cuban tumbador Miguel Díaz, formerly with Orquesta Opus13. "Angá" had the task of filling in the shoes for Irakere's original tumbador Jorge "El Niño" Alfonso. A very talented player. These days he is pursuing a solo career living between France and Havana. Check out his instructional video available at:

http://www.mimfilms.com

Hope this helps!

Saludos, Jorge Ginorio

Speed is glamourous

I agree - I am a real sucker for the glamour of speed and 'chops'. In part this is because I am from a kit drum background, where raw, physical technique is seen by many as a god - kit drummers even hold speed competitions to see who can do the most single-stroke rolls in a minute! Of course this is absurd: I know that chops are not the be all and end all and always listen for musicality etc. But I cannot help be dazzled by a player who is doing something that, in addition to the beauty of the phrasing, I am not anywhere near to being physically abe to do.

Simon B

This is the same (to me) as arguing over who the world's best sculptor or painter is. It doesn't even make sense. Some folks may certainly have a FAVORITE, but many won't--certainly not if they share an equal love for many types of music. Without getting very specific in comparison, I don't think you can even ask, "Who's the better guitarist, Andre Segovia or Joe Satriani?" While you can predict the answer from someone who hates anything but classical music, you're just going to get a puzzled look from anyone else!

I think some cultures (e.g. "Western" culture) have a desperate need to identify "bests" in almost all areas of existence, especially human endeavor. It's related to that concept of winning vs losing that we cling to so desperately!



Edited By Bongo Boy on July 25 2002 at 20:55

You wimps!!! Can't anyone come back with a reply, creative bitch, slam or disagreement???? C'mon...I've not even been scratched!!! What'choo know 'bout it?

OK Bongo Boy,

You want a reply, here you go. The discussion may be a bit too philosophical (and not spelled well) but......

I didn't respond to this earlier because I agree with much of it. However I tend to support our competitive human nature. I am by no means an socio-economist, but isn't the competitive need to win the reason that many capitalistic societies thrive but very few socialist or communist societies do? I don't want to start the cold war again here, so I will aknowledge that Germany is one of a few countries that is pulling the socialist idea off, but that is only with a sharp dose of capitalism thrown in.

I think that competition is part of what drives musicians to excel as well. Granted, without the love of the instrument you will fail. To get back to the congas, do you think that Mongo and Barretto would have become so great if their early carreers weren't spent in constant competition?

Yes, we have a need to compete. Yes we have a desire to find the "best" at everything. However, I think that its healthy, and something to be "clinged" to.

You make a good point about comparing apples to oranges. I think that we can identify the upper tier of congueros, but I would be hard pressed to come up with the best. The Segovia vs. Satriani comparison is a great example.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. :p

Zach

Excellent, 120! Yes--I must agree with you that, in a competitive environment there is generally a winner and a loser (or several). Combat, politics, business, sports, most if not all games, and so on.

But I didn't mean to imply (and I think I may have) that a 'best' in any field implies a winner (and therefore, a loser). But that's where the need for a 'best' probably comes from, just the same. For example, we may refer to the best car, the best horse, the best athlete, etc., in the context of races--again, situations where we do think of winners (but not so much losers, interestingly).

When it comes to musicianship, however, 'best' is not testable, is it? I mean, it's totally subjective--again, more like other arts. Well--okay--I'll have to take that back!!! It's certainly conceivable you could do this: in the manner we 'test' Olympic figure scaters. A panel of judges who rate in one or more fairly-well defined categories could do this. In the world of performance then, it's the audition.

So there you have it--I recant my rant There IS a precedent that most folks apparently either accept or at least are accustomed to, and that's all the original poster was trying to emulate, perhaps.

Technique, originality or creativity, versatility etc., might be rating categories that could be 'measured' by defining examples of these things (you know, triple-reverse-axle on three drums, etc).

I think what you'd get if you actually did this experiment is a number of 'tiers' of musicianship--some folks would fall into Tier A and would all be so close in their scores (i.e., 9.89, 9.90, 9.87, 9.85) that it would look like averages for the top 100 PGA players--you can't tell 'em apart. And, if you were to select a different panel of judges or judge on two consecutive performances, the 9.9 guy would get a 9.8 and vice versa.

One more thing and I'll give it up--but a problem I see with doing this kind of rating is that I think you tend to drive toward demonstration of technique or speed or something else that may not necessarily equate to musicianship. We were just having this dialog on the ibreathemusic.com forums. The idea: guitarists who may demonstrate exceptional command of speed and/or music theory can produce music that is more a demonstration of those skills than it is enjoyable music.

So, best guitarist may be good musician, but not a great musician. Kinda subjective, eh?

120decibels wrote:To get back to the congas, do you think that Mongo and Barretto would have become so great if their early carreers weren't spent in constant competition?

I don't know what motivated either player..but yes, I think it's entirely possible that the idea of competition would never even come to mind.

Competitiveness in this context would mean Mongo saying to himself, "I want to be better than that guy!", or "I want to be seen by others as the greatest", or "I want to be the most famous conguero". But none of these approaches is necessary to achive the goal--goals which may include:

a) I want to be able to make the sound that guy can make
b) I want to be able to play as fast as that
c) I want to be able to play in a style I haven't learned yet
d) I want to do more spectacular things with these drums

I'd go even further: I think there's a big chance that seeing competition as I've depicted it in Paragraph 2 above will actual hinder your ability to achieve the goals suggested in Paragraph 3 above. I would speculate that the masters compete far more fiercely with themselves than with other masters--just my opinion. These would be great questions to put to the masters themselves, or at least to those who have worked with or tutored under them. Hint hint.



Edited By Bongo Boy on Sep. 07 2002 at 09:49