Trivia anyone?

[RayBoogie]

Since you guys like trivia pursuit, I have a great question.

Who was the first person to actually implement Latin musicians to Jazz and I'm not talking about Latin Jazz? This is going back to the late 1800's.

[RayBoogie]

I will really be surprised if anyone gets this answer to the trivia question!!

[Raymond]

I've read Dizzy Gillepsie, by including Chano Pozo, and performing Chano's Manteca, started the afro-cuban jazz movement that eventually became latin jazz. That is what you read everywhere. However, this in the 1940s, if I recall correctly.

Never heard anything in the late 1800's since by that time, mambo, that has a lot of influence with latin jazz apparently has not been developed yet. Interesting to see what is the answer.....

[RitmoBoricua]

Since you guys like trivia pursuit, I have a great question.

Who was the first person to actually implement Latin musicians to Jazz and I'm not talking about Latin Jazz? This is going back to the late 1800's.

Puerto Rican Musical History ---
By George Rivera

I have done extensive research on the subject and have interviewed many musicians, arrangers, composers, promoters, dancers, Palladiumites, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Colombians, Venezolanos, Dominicanos, y hasta mamalones. Throughtout most of my research the one thing that would always come up was that the origins of the danzon and the son were Cuban. Guys like Mario Bauza, Machito, and Tito Puente would always tell me that what they played was Cuban music since the music was developed in Cuba, as would many others. Machito would always add that if it were not for the Puerto Ricans, the music would have never survived as long as it has.

Now, I have been told by numerous Cuban musicologists that the son arrived in Cuba via a Dominican women. In researching the music I have come across many cuartetos from Puerto Rico that were in fact playing what most of us would consider son back in the early 1900's. If one goes even further into the music they will find that not only was the Puerto Rican playing traditional son back then, but they were in the forefront of development of American Jazz! That's right, Jazz.

There was an U.S. Army Lt. by the name of James Reese Europe who was playing what has come to be known as Jazz back as early as 1905. The very first jazz recording was recorded and released in 1921. Now scholars have recognized the music of Lt. Europe, which was recorded in 1919, two years before, as the first real jazz recording. Involved in these recordings of 1919 along with Lt. Europe were clarinetists Rafael Duchesne, Antonio Gonzales, Gregorio Felix Delgado, Genaro Torres, Elige Rijos, Jesus Hernandez, and Arturo B. Ayala, saxist Ceferino Hernandez, bassoonist Pablo Fuentes, mellophonists Francisco Melendez and Eleuterio Melendez, baritones Nicholas Vazquez and Froilan Jimenez, tubas Jose Rivera Rosas and Sixto Benitez, and one of Puerto Rico's legendary composers Don Rafael Hernandez, on trombone.

You see, Lt. Europe was commissioned by the Army to put together a band to boost the morale of the men in the Army. He needed musicians that were good sight readers, only they had to be black due to the segregation that was going on at the time. Due to a shortage of black musicians that could sight read, the Lt. was given permission to go to Puerto Rico and recruit Puerto Rican musicians for the band since the island had a pool of very talented musicians that were excellent sight readers. With the help of Lt. Rafael Hernandez the Puerto Rican musicians were recruited. The rest is history. If not for the fact that Lt. Jim Europe's life was cut short by the hand of one of his band members soon after the recordings in question, the story of Jim Europe would be known by all jazzistas.

In light of this information, and the fact that Mario Bauza has always maintained that there were Puerto Ricans involved in Jazz when he arrived in NYC and joined the bands of Chick Webb and Cab Calloway, one has to consider that there was in fact a contribution in the development of CuBop and Latin American music, or what is considered Afro-Cuban music. Why Afro-Cuban music? Well simply because at the height of it's popularity there were more Puerto Rican musicians involved in its development than Cubans here in New York. Another important factor is that in the 1920's when radio and records began to take off Puerto Rico was short changed due to the fact that it was a possession of the US. The island of Puerto Rico had only one radio station for the entire island and as a result recording companies such as RCA paid it less attention than Cuba which had about 21 radio stations. Due to this fact one can deduct that the music of Cuba gained a larger audience than that of Puerto Rico. Also, you have to ask yourself could what was going on in Cuba musically been going on in Puerto Rico simultaneously since there is not really an accurate recorded history. I believe that given the calibre and quantity of musicians on the island that there had to be some kind of equality with what was going on in Cuba. After all Rafael Hernandez and many others at the time did travel throughout the Caribbean islands, Mexico, and the mainland US.

So my educated guess taking into account the Lt. Jim Europe band, radio, recordings, the music scene in NYC from the 20's to the 70's, and other scholarly materials available is that Puerto Rico and Cuba are equals in the history of Afro-Caribbean music. BTW don't take my word on the exploits of Lt. Jim Europe, if you would like to research the subject further start at the Department of American Studies of the University of Alabama! That's right, Alabama!!! You can also checkout the Maryland Historical Society and The National Archives at the Smithsonian.

PS: In 1931 a group of Puerto Rico's most outstanding musicians met with then Governor Theodore Roosevelt, Jr. to discuss the establishment of a conservatory of music for the island. This came about due to a resolution passed in the Puerto Rican Senate. Then Governor Roosevelt, Jr. struck the idea down insisting that they stick to the jibaro music he liked so much. Imagine what could have developed has this law which was passed and approved by the Puerto Rican Senate had not been vetoed by this jackass...In the words of the late great Machito, "despierta Boricua" defiende lo tuyo...

[Johnny Conga]

Here goes..the answer I believe is Louis Moreau Gottschalk, who at the time was a Louisiana composer. At the time in Louisiana there had been an influence of Cuban and Mexican music, and he made extensive use of these elements. How'd I do???.... At your Service...JC JOHNNY CONGA.... :;):

[zaragemca]

Johnny you nailed, back in to Cuba music,the first artistic style developed in Cuba(some thing that many people have forgeted about it was the Bolero(1888-1889),then Florida and Lousiana states have Cuban connection,even before the U.S. become whole Country.(When Jose Marti was punished with Destierro he went to Tampa and Key West to lecture the Tabacaleros(Cubans) which were working there,1860 to 80's).When the Revolution in Haiti, many Haitian and France people moved to Lousiana and Cuba establishing a traffic between the two Colonies.The third Musical Style'Son',was a mixing of Decima Guajira,Clave(from the Guaguanco),and Maracas which come from African heritage.Setting itself in three Players(Trios),with the lead of two persons Miguel Matamoros and Ignacio Pineiro as the undispurable two contenders among the Cuban soneros.From there they in corporate the Cajon and later the Bongos and Trompet,finally setting in what was called at that time Sexteto.When the U.S declared the War to Spain in relation to the Maine' Ship(1989), many services man got in to contact with the Cuban Music and took it back to the U.S. when going back home,and that was when the RCA Victor got interested in it., and recording was setup to take place in Cuba and in Mexico,later in the U.S.The four music Style,Guaracha came out of the Son Montuno which was played at a faster tempo.And Full Rumba,came from the 'Conga Beat' which was the Rhythms played at the Cuban's Comparsas during the carnivals.Every 'Barrio' in Havana have one Comparsa and my 'Barrio' Los Sitios have one'La Boyera',which will compet for the first prize during the Carnivals.So there is not Question from where the Bolero,Danzon,Son,Guaracha,Guauanco,and Rumba came from.What happened also is that there have been a traffic of Cuban people out of Cuba( taking the music with them, and foreign people comming to Cuba and been exposed to it, plus all the Cuban musicians which have established themself out of Cuba in the U.S,the Caribbean,Europa,and even in Africa( I know a few African people which have told me that there are Cubans living in Africa,since long time ago).'Just for the records', the first and still most standing Caribbean songs, (with was recorded even in English)...El Manicero,( The Peanut Vendor) of Moises Simon,..went around the world several times over since 1920 to 30, taking with it the pulse of the Cuban's music.



Edited By zaragemca on 1074793858

[whammy]

Not to disrespect the afro-cuban heritage of tumbadoras (because I am learning so much it's crazy!)

...but have you listened to any of the tabla work of some of the hand drummers that have played with Ravi Shankar in India on "tablas"?

That music is wholly insane... but very very cool. I'm definitely going to incorporate some of that improvisational style into my conga playing, although when you get down to the basics of drumming it's all pretty similar, especially when you listen to some of the master conga players. The drums even sound similar in tuning in most cases.

I've _even_ heard Johnny Conga do a thing or two that are similar to these guys.

P.S. Johnny I'm just giving you a hard time. You're very good, and I don't want to have a hand drumming competition, because I would lose!



Edited By whammy on 1074738605

[zaragemca]

I forgot to tell(and would have to punch myself if omitted),those which took the music to the world,but on diffferent venue(Movies),like Ernesto Lecuona,Xavier Cugat,Don Aspiazu Band,Damaso Perez Prado,etc.(talking at that time).To Wammy, I have two of my percussion school students which are Tabla-players,yes Indian players create magic with those instruments.



Edited By zaragemca on 1074793564

[RitmoBoricua]

Here goes..the answer I believe is Louis Moreau Gottschalk, who at the time was a Louisiana composer. At the time in Louisiana there had been an influence of Cuban and Mexican music, and he made extensive use of these elements. How'd I do???.... At your Service...JC JOHNNY CONGA.... :;):

Mr. Louis Moreau Gottschalk traveled extensively thru the Caribbean and South America.

[RayBoogie]

I'm so sorry about the date. The date is around the 1920's. The answer is Jellyroll Morton that actually had mexican musicians (trumpeters), in his Jazz band. He was the first to have latin musicians in his band.

[RitmoBoricua]

I'm so sorry about the date. The date is around the 1920's. The answer is Jellyroll Morton that actually had mexican musicians (trumpeters), in his Jazz band. He was the first to have latin musicians in his band.

I was reading a book the other day and mentioned the fact that in New Orleans back in the day they had a heavy mexican music influence. Quite interesting.

[Johnny Conga]

Oye RitmoB...sorry but it was Gottschalk who had hispanic musicians in his band in the late 1800's in New Orleans. Mexicans and Cubans. And believe me there were others we do not know about that were flourishing in Cuba also at the time. Reference is "The Latin Tinge" by John Storm Roberts. I recommend this book very highly......JC JOHNNY CONGA.... :;):

[RitmoBoricua]

Oye RitmoB...sorry but it was Gottschalk who had hispanic musicians in his band in the late 1800's in New Orleans. Mexicans and Cubans. And believe me there were others we do not know about that were flourishing in Cuba also at the time. Reference is "The Latin Tinge" by John Storm Roberts. I recommend this book very highly......JC JOHNNY CONGA.... :;):

I just said there were mexican musicians in New Orleans back in the day in general not in any particular band. I have the book you are making reference to. I bet you anything there were musicians from Haiti and Santo Domingo since they shared the same french roots as New Orleans. The problem is that there is a lot of this history that has not been documented properly plus there is a lot of revisionism going on also.

[Johnny Conga]

ESO LA VERDAD!,brother........Peace...JC JOHNNY CONGA...

[zaragemca]

As far as I know,you might be talking about descendants of Haitian which might get in to the Cuban Music,but Haitian when comming to Cuba were following their own heritage, not trying to get in to Cuban Music,they keep it to themself.It takes one or two generations to do the transition and adaptability to new culture,which at that time they were Cubans.The Dominican connection to Cuba dates back to the initial, the Indian Hatuey came from Dominican,advising the Indigenas in Cuba of the intention of Los Espanoles,and he paid for it being put on fire alive.Carlos Manuel de Cespedez(during Cuban fight for independency)was a Dominican.



Edited By zaragemca on 1075318866