Percusion en tema de salsa - Percusion en la Salsa

[GuaroSon]

Presentando antes que nada mis respetos ! Ache!

Como aficionado a la musica y aprendiz de percusion es para mi un sueño encontrar este sitio, felicitaciones !!!

Quisiera preguntarle a los maestros si me pueden ayudar con la siguiente inquietud...

En la salsa un tema en clave 3/2
cada instrumento hace su patron basico
tumbadora =Tumbao
bongo= martillo
Timbal=cascara?

en que golpe del patron basico de cada uno debe empezar y caer para estar en clave ?
La misma situacion para clave 2/3

Pido su paciencia pues apenas empiezo ....


Gracias

:p

[zaragemca]

I'm sorry that I did see this post late.The 2/3 Clave was incorporated in to the 'Son'( the first style in to the 'Salsa'music),from the Guaguanco,in the 'Salsa'music everybody start at the counting of the 4/4 time signature,which is also the begining of the 3-2 Clave.In the 'Trios'(three players),the singer would keep the Clave.In the Bands the Timbal player would keep it(sometimes with the cascareo,or with the second Bell's patterns played by the Timbaleros...In all the groups with exception only of the Guaguanco,Rumba-Columbia,etc.everybody start at the same time in the 4/4 time signature.All yours,zaragemca...www.dreadnecknation.com



Edited By zaragemca on 1089308642

[Raymond]

Guaro son,

El instrumento de percusion que mas se afecta en cuanto a si el compas es el 2 o el 3 de la clave es el timbal. El cascareo y el campaneo del timbalero tienen dos compases musicales y uno es para la parte 2 y otro para la parte 3 de la clave. Dependiendo que parte de la clave esta en ese compas, en ese "parte del cascareo/campaneo" debe comenzar el timbalero a hacer el cascareo y/o el campaneo.

La mayoria y si no todos los arreglos musicales de salsa tienen esa "notacion" cuando hay silencios para indicar en que compas de la clave esta el compas, 2/3 o 3/2, para ayudar a que se este en clave. Muchos supuestos timbaleros subestiman esto porque lo que hacen muchos es que pueden empezar "cruzados" con la clave pero se "enderezan" en la marcha. Principalmente cuando el compas es la parte 3 porque el cascareo y campaneo suenan extranos y como que chocan. Mucha gente lo acomodan. (Ejemplo para que lo pruebes, cheque la cancion "La Rueda" de la Solucion con Frankie Ruiz. En esta cancion el patron es 3/2).

El martillo del bongo y el "baqueteo o tumbao" de la conga se acomodan bastante bien a cualquier compas de la clave ya que estos "patrones o golpes" son de un solo compas. Favor notar que cuando en la conga se hace el tumbao completo, que es cuando se utlizan las dos congas en el coro, mambo, etc, la parte de baqueteo en el quinto/conga solamente es en el compas 2 de la clave. El campaneo del bongosero se afecta un poquito tambien pero no tanto. Supuestamente hay un patron a seguir cuando de donde se debe empezar o si en la boca de la campana o abajo pero yo veo que no mucha gente lo sigue. Lo que pasa es que cuando se le da a la boca de la campana esto siempre coincide en el golpe/espacio 1 y 3 del compas y cuando hay un silencio y el compas empieza en la parte 3, mucha gente da en la boca y no da abajo y vuelve da en la boca para que no choque con la campana del timbal. Dejame decirte que empezar a tocar campana de bongo en un compas 3 es medio incomodo para el bongosero. Por lo general los arreglos que despues de un silencio empieza en la parte 3 tienen un "silencio" musical en el 1 y la campana del bongo empieza en el 3. Otras veces no se siente natural empezar en el golpe 1 del compas en un compas 3 de la clave. (Ejemplo: Chequea "El Menu" del Gran Combo. El coro empieza en la parte 2 de la clave pero la percusion empieza en siguiente compas que el 3 de la clave. Para mucha gente empezar la campana del bongo es incomodo ahi).

La mayoria de los arreglos mantienen un patron 2/3 en vez de 3/2. 2/3 es mucho mas comodo para tocar.

Espero esto te ayude y no te confundas con el 3 o el 2 o el golpe tal, etc...! Saludos!



Edited By Raymond on 1073572253

[zaragemca]

Welcome brother Raymond,I would like to point out something which could be confusing,the origing of the Cascareo is to create a dynamic(noise down) pattern when the singing is on the main lyrics,or when the piano is doing solos(either to hands Cascara,or one hand Cascara),I could said that at least in Cuba the bongos was eliminated in the new Bands, so there the Timbal Player or Drummer is the one taking the lead on the Clave.The Hand-Bell,which is the one incorporated it in to the 'Son' in Cuba, start in the mouth(of the Bell) marking the strong 1,and 3 beat in the 4/4 time signature,and...(the second Bell,the one played by the Timbalero is in coordination with THIS Bell(Hand-Bell).Even in a Band playing without Clave the musicians have to find they respective place in the pattern in relation to the 4/4 time signature which is the notation in which that music have been set up.



Edited By zaragemca on 1073597005

[RitmoBoricua]

Welcome brother Raymond,I would like to point out something which could be confusing,the origing of the Cascareo is to create a dynamic(noise down) pattern when the singing is on the main lyrics,or when the piano is doing solos(either to hands Cascara,or one hand Cascara),I could said that at least in Cuba the bongos was eliminated in the new Bands, so there the Timbal Player or Drummer is the one taking the lead on the Clave.The Hand-Bell,which is the one incorporated it in to the 'Son' in Cuba, start in the mouth marking the strong 1,and 3 beat in the 4/4 time signature,and...(the second Bell,the one played by the Timbalero is in coordination with THIS Bell(Hand-Bell).Even in a Band playing without Clave the musicians have to find they respective place in the pattern in relation to the 4/4 time signature which is the notation in which that music have been set up.

Something that it gets me, is that when I listen to recordings of Salsa there seems to be quite a few patterns for the timbal bell for arragements in 3/2 or 2/3 clave while the bongo bell pattern is basically the same. To me the timbal belll patterns are more intricate. Wasn't "La Cascara" originally played on the side of the bongos?

[zaragemca]

You are absolutely right Ritmoboricua,I have witness several Timbaleros holding differents second Bells Patterns(but is responding only to the Hand-Held -Bell(if anyone in the Band).No,in relation of the question for the Bongos,the 'repicateo' of the Bongos was set up around the Lyrics of the singer(again with some differences)according with the Bongocero,and As I said bafore at least in Cuba, the Tumbadora replaced the bongos in the Orquestas and New Groups.(Arsenio Rodriguez was the flame getting the Congas in to the main Cuban Conjuntos).



Edited By zaragemca on 1073596809

[RitmoBoricua]

You are absolutely right Ritmoboricua,I have witness several Timbaleros holding differents second Bells Patterns(but is responding only to the Hand-Held -Bell(if anyone in the Band).No,in relation of the question for the Bongos,the 'repicateo' of the Bongos was set up around the Lyrics of the singer(again with some differences)according with the Bongocero,and As I said bafore at least in Cuba, the Tumbadora replaced the bongos in the Orquestas and New Groups.(Arsenio Rodriguez was the flame getting the Congas in to the main Cuban Conjuntos).

Hello. Of course at least on my estimation de timbal bell for the most part is to compliment the main bell (hand bell) in a lot of cases you not even hear the timbal bell. That hand bell is a driving force. I was not talking about "repiqueteao" or bongo riff. I was talking about back in the 40's at least some bongoceros in the U.S. played "cascara" patterns with sticks on the side of the bongos and at sometime it was dropped. Do you know around what time was the hand bell first used by the bongo player? Was it around the 1950's? It seems to me prior to the 50's the bongo player stayed on the bongo all the time. Thanks!

[Raymond]

Yes, timbaleros use variations from the standard beats when they are playing the timbale bell. Various books out there address the variations. (Tito Puente's last book has lots of them and some of the charts in the books have the notation that Tito followed in the cowbell. Like we say in "salsa", the variations are to be more swingy and loosen up the beat or to accomodate it to the swing of song. The most common variation is following the same beats used for the cascara. Example, notice Tito's rendition of Beny More's "Castellano" and is actually the 2/3 cascara what he is doing in the intro of the song.

My understanding of the origin of cascara is from an instrument, do not recall the name but it is made of wood, used in "rumbas". Also, I've heard that it was played on the side of congas to keep the beats and maintain the clave. Furthermore, notice that the danzon "baqueteo" is almost like the cascareo we know today.

Saludos!

[RitmoBoricua]

Yes, timbaleros use variations from the standard beats when they are playing the timbale bell. Various books out there address the variations. (Tito Puente's last book has lots of them and some of the charts in the books have the notation that Tito followed in the cowbell. Like we say in "salsa", the variations are to be more swingy and loosen up the beat or to accomodate it to the swing of song. The most common variation is following the same beats used for the cascara. Example, notice Tito's rendition of Beny More's "Castellano" and is actually the 2/3 cascara what he is doing in the intro of the song.

My understanding of the origin of cascara is from an instrument, do not recall the name but it is made of wood, used in "rumbas". Also, I've heard that it was played on the side of congas to keep the beats and maintain the clave. Furthermore, notice that the danzon "baqueteo" is almost like the cascareo we know today.

Saludos!

Hello. The TP of the later years kept simple patterns on the bell you right in many instances he was using the cascara pattern on the bell, the one you use when say the conga or bongo are taking a solos which also is the same cascareo for some guaguancos.

[zaragemca]

The other Cascareo outside the Timbales is the one used for the original Rumba,which was played in a Chinese wooden box,or piece of wood.The Cascareo in the side of the Conga,or Bongos would damage the body of those instruments.The Hand-Held Bell pattern was played in some groups by one of the singers,in others by the bongocero.The Baqueteo of the danzon,follow a different pattern that the Cascareo of the Son,Guaracha,or Rumba,also this Baqueteo was performed with one sticks on top of the Timbal rims and the other sticks beating on top of it.



Edited By zaragemca on 1073685176

[Mr. Furley]

Instead of starting a new topic I thought this one would be apprpriate...Anyway..

I have trouble hearing the slap on 2 when I listen to salsa recordings. What else is happening on 2 (i.e. other instruments) that prevents me from readily hearing this?

Also,

As far as gaining a developmental and historical understanding of conga playing in mambo/salsa, where should I start as far recordings go? I'm not talking about simply a list of great congueros, but I'm talking about seminal recordings which illustrate how the role of the conga has developed through the 20th century...Any thoughts on this?

[Johnny Conga]

I will always recommend listening to Mongo Santamaria, if you want to hear a slap that is the one you need to listen to, the most profound slap in recording history. Then Ray Baretto, then Patato. Or who ever else you like to listen too. JC JOHNNY CONGA... :;):

[Johnny Conga]

I recommend any album by Mongo>....JC JOHNNY CONGA...

[Raymond]

Mr. Furley,

What do you mean you cannot hear the slap in 2? In a salsa song the slap and in the basic one conga tumbao the slap is the third beat. (The basic one conga tumbao is one bar).

The notation of the basic one conga tumbao is pure eighth notes, tataatata,

If I recall correctly, is Heel, Toe, Slap, Heel, etc, etc. (You see the slap is there in the beginning of the second double eighth notes on the second "space" of the 4/4 bar..

On the 2, only the timbalero is doing something different. (He/she is doing the cascara pattern on the 2). Bongosero in the martillo, unless is doing improvisational hits, is also doing the same... In campaneo, they both differ, bongosero and timbalero. Nevertheless, regardless of what they are doing, you should be able to concentrate on the conguero and start identifying the beats. (Of course, if the mix of the record is good and the conga is "up" in the mixing...Try some mid 80s, TH/Rodven salsa records, Frankie Ruiz, Tommy Olivencia and/or first Gilberto Santarrosa records, and notice Jimmy Morales playing in those records and you could hear his slap loud and perfect....)

Need to pay attention to the conga and you will notice all the "beats" of the congeros. (Best way to do it...identify the clave, start keeping it up by clapping and start counting bars...and concentrate by listening on the instrument you want to listen to...).

Saludos!

[Mr. Furley]

Thank you Raymond and JC.

Raymond, I say "on 2" because its in 4/4 time and I thinking of beat 2 with respect to the 4/4, not the 2nd note played by the conguero. Is this not the standard way for talking about the parts of the rhythm?

I also dance salsa, so I am quite accustomed to hearing all the beats...well at least the "on beats" 1,2,3,4 (I haven't yet reached the level of throwing in syncopated footwork) and the one off-beat of the clave. I can also hear the clave, so I know where the slap is supposed to be, but I'm not hearing it. I'll check out some of the recommendations.

Which Frankie Ruiz do you recommend?