marcha and montuno

[montezuma]

Hi!
Could anyboady tell me when should I play marcha and when montuno? Are there any "rules"? One teacher told me that montuno is played only on refrain. But when I listen to the variuos salsa groups I hear that conga (bongo, timbales) play also montuno when a tromphet or piano is playing solo. It is also common that the chorus is singing refrain but the conga, bongo and timbales are still playing marcha. But when a vocalist begin to sing (call the chorus?) the percussion instruments begin to play montuno. I know that durning the solo (piano, bass, trumphet) conga, bongo and timbales are playing low (quietly), but why sometimes they play montuno durning the solo and sometimes marcha? I would be greatfull if someone explain it to me!
Saludos

[Raymond]

I guess montuno means uptempo part of the arrangement, in which timbalero and bongo player are playing bells and the conga player is playing the "tumbao" of more than one conga, and "marcha" is when the timbalero is playing "cascara" and bongo player is at the bongos, and the conga player is playing the basic one conga "tumbao". Am I right?

Anyway, there are some "givens" in afro cuban genres like salsa, mambo, etc. Believe it or not depends in the arrangement or what the arranger wants. There are some "standards" or givens but necessarily you have to follow them.

The biggest "given" is that if the bongo player is playing the bongo bell, the timbale player is doing also. The conga player tends to play the two conga part when the bongo bell is player. Does that need to be that way all the time???? Not necesarilly but is the norm expected. Again, depends in the arrangement.

There are some "givens" when some of the other instruments are doing solos but again, it does not mean it could be different. When a piano or bass solo, all the percussion is playing marcha. (However, I've heard piano solo with the timbale and bongo player at the bells). Brass solos are most of the times uptempo but what the timbale player and bongo player will play could be differente, again, depending in the arrangement. The timbale player could be hitting the bell of the cymbal with a mambo jazz pattern and/or the bongo bell could be going straight "marcha" on the bell or even "mambo jazz". (Mambo jazz pattern is actually a cascara pattern played in the cymbal or bell).

I hope this helps??? (If you want to tell us some specifics. Give us an example).

Saludos!

[RitmoBoricua]

I guess montuno means uptempo part of the arrangement, in which timbalero and bongo player are playing bells and the conga player is playing the "tumbao" of more than one conga, and "marcha" is when the timbalero is playing "cascara" and bongo player is at the bongos, and the conga player is playing the basic one conga "tumbao". Am I right?

To me la marcha y el tumbao are the same thing when you are playing tumbadoras. The way I understand it the montuno is the part of the song when you have the call and response (coro y pregon) and most of the time the tumbador continues playing la marcha or tumbao regardless, unless otherwise indicated. Also during the montuno section of the song you can have your solos. I think what he could be referring to is the changes in dynamic that occurs during different sections of the song like montuno, moñas, mambos, cierre, coda, intro etc. Sometimes during mambos and moñas the tumbador may play some floreos/licks or a pattern variation of his own but always returns back to the tumbao. I almost forgot the piano plays a pattern known as "Montuno" too, a repeated piano vamp.


My One Cent.

Saludos Panin!




Edited By RitmoBoricua on 1106001826

[JohnnyConga]

That's right Ritmo B...Montuno is a piano vamp and Marcha is what's played on the conga. So you may have some confusion over terminology,? Montezuma...."JC" Johnny Conga... :;):

[JohnnyConga]

"Marcha" also means "marking your time". "JC" Johnny Conga...

[L.Fonseca]

I am finding this topic very interesting, is there any book with these "givens" of each rythm or something like it?

The knowledge of some people here seems really really deep. And I am absorbing it all:) Thanx

[mangorockfish]

Okay, I'm a real black or white kinda guy. I have a tough time with grey areas so I need some help here. Raymaond kinda opened it up for me, but is this the way it is: the montuno is an uptempo tumbao or variation played on more than one drum and usually during the chorus, bridge or lead/solo, and the marcha is tumbao played on one drum during the verse. I was under the impression that montuno and marcha were patterns or rhythms in themselves

[zaragemca]

Saludos,Ritmoboricua,Raymond,and JC are in the right track,the confusing part is related to the style of the percussionists,it is usully, the one conga tumbao(marcha),during the lead lyrics,and would switch to the montuno(using several congas), during the(pregoneo,or corus),there is a difference in the Mambo and Guaracha which are both more dynamics in tempo,so from the begining the percussion would start strong,breaking down only for the solos of the piano,flute, or violin(if any).The horns are considered loudsy instruments so sometime they do the solos with the strong percussion backing it up.I have to point out that in recording the band might not need to break it down becouse the sound engineer could manipulate the volumen of the track, for the piano to be heard during the solos.



Edited By zaragemca on 1106013531

[montezuma]

Thank a lot for all your advices :;):
So the difference between montuno and marcha seems to be "intuitiv". RitmoBoricua - Could you tell me what is "moñas" ?

[mangorockfish]

Saludos,Ritmoboricua,Raymond,and JC are in the right track,the confusing part is related to the style of the percussionists,it is usully, the one conga tumbao(marcha),during the lead lyrics,and would switch to the montuno(using several congas), during the(pregoneo,or corus),there is a difference in the Mambo and Guaracha which are both more dynamics in tempo,so from the begining the percussion would start strong,breaking down only for the solos of the piano,flute, or violin(if any).The horns are considered loudsy instruments so sometime they do the solos with the strong percussion backing it up.I have to point out that in recording the band might not need to break it down becouse the sound engineer could manipulate the volumen of the track, for the piano to be heard during the solos.

Ok Zaragemca, help me out here. If you play a tumbao on one drum during a verse, it is a marcha, and if you play the same tumbao or a variation of it on more than one drum during the chorus and/or solo then it is a montuno? Is this correct in a broad sense? If this is true, it will open up a whole new world for me. Let's leave mambo and guaracha out for these questions. Thanks
Mango'
???

[zaragemca]

You got that right brother.

[mangorockfish]

Zaragemca, thanks a million for clarifying this for me. I'm a happy guy now.

[RitmoBoricua]

Thank a lot for all your advices :;):
So the difference between montuno and marcha seems to be "intuitiv". RitmoBoricua - Could you tell me what is "moñas" ?

Have you ever seen/heard in Salsa when say a trumpet player is taking a solo and say the trombones are like keeping the bottom for the trumpet solo with their own improvisational lines and there is lot of ad lib back and forth between the horns, basically they just cut loose simultaneously. That's the best way I can describe "moñas" and they usually come after the mambo section of the song.

[RitmoBoricua]

Saludos,Ritmoboricua,Raymond,and JC are in the right track,the confusing part is related to the style of the percussionists,it is usully, the one conga tumbao(marcha),during the lead lyrics,and would switch to the montuno(using several congas), during the(pregoneo,or corus),there is a difference in the Mambo and Guaracha which are both more dynamics in tempo,so from the begining the percussion would start strong,breaking down only for the solos of the piano,flute, or violin(if any).The horns are considered loudsy instruments so sometime they do the solos with the strong percussion backing it up.I have to point out that in recording the band might not need to break it down becouse the sound engineer could manipulate the volumen of the track, for the piano to be heard during the solos.

Ok Zaragemca, help me out here. If you play a tumbao on one drum during a verse, it is a marcha, and if you play the same tumbao or a variation of it on more than one drum during the chorus and/or solo then it is a montuno? Is this correct in a broad sense? If this is true, it will open up a whole new world for me. Let's leave mambo and guaracha out for these questions. Thanks
Mango'
???

Tumbao is a tumbao whether you play it on one drum or five. Montuno also known as Son Y Montuno is the section of the song where you have the call and response. Also a repeated piano vamp is known as Montuno but I have never heard the term montuno used for what the conga plays. The Tumbador Plays Tumbao Or Marcha during a Montuno and regardless of how many drums the players uses still is a "Tumbao". Get this the Bass player rhythm pattern is also known as "Tumbao". I hope this helps with the proper terminology where I think the problem is in this case.



Edited By RitmoBoricua on 1106102188

[mangorockfish]

Ritmoboricua, are you saying that a montuno is a part of the song, and if a tumbao is played on one drum it is called a tumbao or a marcha whichever you prefer, and is played during the verse primarily? I'm trying to get all this straight.
Thanks