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Posted: **Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:50 pm**

Hi all,

I've been offered the chance to play congas for a ~8 piece swing big band in my home town. The problem is, while I listen to a bit of swing jazz, I'm not greatly familiar with the role (or extent) of congas in a big band swing situation.

What would you play, given this situation? Maybe a mambo, songo or son? And would you incorporate other hand percussion instruments like bongos and bells as well? Could any one recommend some swing jazz/bop recordings featuring conga parts?

Thanks all, look forward to hearing your thoughts!

queixada

Posted: **Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:12 pm**

Congas in swinging jazz wud usualy play tumbao with swing or sometimes 6/8 patterns work well.Check out Patato valdez with grant green or some of the recordings ray Barretto did with blue note artists.Also look out for the chano pozo stuff with dizzy and some old candido camero records he did with jazzers.

Posted: **Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:00 pm**

Most of "swing jazz" is done with a "shuffle" feel tumbao, and done mostly on the low/tumba drum. There really isn't too much u can do with this form of music, except to "play it straight", no foolin around on the drum...you may also incorporate the bongos...Candido as recommended by NiallGregory..is your best bet to learn and hear that "shuffle" done on congas and bongos.....The Billy Taylor Trio with Candido-circa 1952, is available....it's Candido's first recording, and the playing is 'supreme'......let us know how it turns out for ya......"JC" Johnny Conga.....

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... e_Volcanic

Posted: **Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:17 pm**

Greeting, just need to identify,which type of jazz the band could be playing,( being the Swing-Type the easier one).Dr.Zaragemca

Posted: **Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:00 pm**

queixada and others!

Nice to read and get the approval from you guys

that in swing jazz it is mostly played tumbao in a shuffle kind a way, straight and groovy and on tumba. I did some jam sessions on jazz standards and even played some of our own swings with that pattern and first i thought it is too simple, but it grooves most, if you start to complicate you can easily mess up or mess up other musicians groove. Personally you can make fills on some parts, i did mostly with bongos in fast triplets, just to spice up some guitar or other solo instrument parts.

Groove on!

Primozz

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:01 am**

Check out the recordings of Stan Kenton,
some of which have a conguero. I saw him
once with a guy named Ramon Lopez (from the Bronx).
It's important not to overplay, in fact you can be
very tasty by being understated and not just
be repititious with the tumbao. Leaving out a beat, or laying out here or there will add some subtle surprises.
Above all don't be boring. Keep in mind the
drummmer is keeping time. There's no law that says you must maintain a constant stready tumbao as in salsa.
The bongo addition is a great suggestion from the others that you should try to incorporate. You can alternate between bongos and congas in different sections of the song as it builds and then use all together. If your bongo is mounted (or not) you can quickly move between the
macho and your tumba and be very dramatic or do
some fills on the hembra and keep a more conventional "four &" shuffle (the accent falling on the "AND" after 4, or sometime just play the 4, and other bars just the
AND)with the other hand on the conga. There's a video of Sinatra live at the Sands I believe (if anyone has seen this let me know I still don't know who it was)
with a great percussionist on congas & bongos. It really helped the whole band cook buy added spicy accents
that enhance the song's melodic line. It requires an adjustment by both you and the drumset player.
I've had the opportunity to do many big band gigs in New York over a 16 year period, and discovered
there's a lot of freedom to explore within the swing
song structure. There's a way to make each song
tell it's story with a beginning, middle and end.
Enjoy yourself!

~ ISAAC ~ funkytradition@yahoo.com
percussionist / Rep. JCR Percussion Co.

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:44 am**

Thanks VERY MUCH everyone, your replies are really useful. I'll be sure to check out some of those recordings and let you know how the first jam session goes.

Axe!

queixada

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:52 am**

Yep, providing its in swing form, shuffle tumbao is what should be played, nice and straight, there are some variations you can perform using a second drum (ie tres golpes and tumba etc)

Where abouts in Australia are you located?

Posted: **Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:33 pm**

Heh Heh - Candido 'Volcanic' - I got that LP - 10" pressing too!!

I have done a little big band work - mostly playing that shuffled tumbao and adding a little flavour to the rhythm.

Posted: **Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:42 pm**

Another interesting thread here. Personally I haven't done much big band since the Frank Foster era at Rutgers University, and all this good advice here should be well taken. Now in addition to all kinds of Brasilian and Cuban music, I do love me some bebop, and have been playing with a little with the Canadian jazz guitarist Mark Guest. For that gig I usually do a hard bop feel tumbao with my left hand on the quinto and play my old flat top ride cymbal with a Vic Firth stick in my right hand. The idea is to conjure up Art Blakey and Ray Baretto, or Elvin and Candido, but trust me, I got a looonnngggg way to go. Keep on diggin' everyone, I know I will!

Saludos,

Berimbau

Posted: **Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:37 am**

I used to hate to play a swung tumbao in swing-based jazz. For 20 years I refused to partake. I just got fed up with jazzers who dismissed "Latin rhythms" and I gravitated towards genres I enjoyed and understood better. In Ned Sublet's recent book "Cuba and its Music" he states that there are two elements in African-American music that do not exist in Afro-Cuban music: the blues and swing. I used to share that view.

However, in the past decade or so I've realized that swing does indeed exist in Afro-Cuban music. In Cuban music the swing feel is hidden. For example, the Matanzas segundo ride and guagua, as well as other percussion parts can be played with a swing feel. The bonko has it. All the slow 6/8 bata rhythms have a swing shuffle and there are many other examples.

My take now is that jazz incorporates many of the "flavors" of clave-based music, without the actual clave structure. I've taken a new and open look at swing recently and I wouldn't mind playing some swing jazz. I agree with all the recomendations I've read in regards to playing swing congas.

-David

Posted: **Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:01 pm**

Greeting I would have to disagree with 'Ned' view,David Penalosa,(the point is that it is unknown to some scholars outside of Cuba),both of them had some parallels-roots in Afrocuban Music,the swing, as you already said, and the Blues could be played in a parameter of an old Caribbean-Rhythms which was called 'Beguine', some mexicans,cubans, and South American baladist,( of the 60's), had songs in that genre...Dr.Zaragemca

Edited By zaragemca on 1121353371

Posted: **Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:52 pm**

Hola Amigos,
The distinct social histories of various New World regions enriched through the African cultural presence are being ignored here to simply forward a number of generalizations regarding the rhythmic structure and feel of African-derived musics. Oh Mother Africa!!!! The roots of this poorly constructed paradigm are in the subconscious internalization of liberation politics. As RIGHT ON!! as I believe such pan-Africanist politics to be, it is still an unsound basis for any serious anthropological investigation. In the end it tells us more about the noble social goals and political aims of an individual researcher, but much less about the actual music, the people who create it, or their OWN history. Long before most of us were born, Richard Allen Waterman had already exhausted this type of formulary in his famous "Hot Rhythm" article of 1948. The methodological standard that Gerhard Kubik later achieved in his books "Angolan Traits" and "Africa and the Blues" are what one should be striving for, not some of the vague assertions that are being posted here.
I'm fairly certain that many of the talented percussionists posting on Congaboard could find (and expertly play!) a clave feel in Balkan funeral music. Does that mean that Balkan music is "in clave." From whose perspective? This is an important distinction! Of course there are MANY shared African and European elements in Afro-Cuban and African-American music, just as there are similarities and convergences in the social histories of both Cuba and the U.S. In light of this it was no accident that many of the leading musicians in Jazz and Afro-Cuban musics later recognized a common ground for mutual exploration. This exchange of cultural capital between Cuba and the U.S. has been intensifying now for nearly 100 years. Could this more RECENT musical interchange have been the source for the perceived "swing" in Cuban music, or the clave timeline in Jazz? Does one really have to invoke the largely assumed and as yet unnamed "Mother Africa" as the ultimate source? I propose a far more fluid approach that recognizes the always changing social realities and cultural interchanges between Africa, Cuba, and the U.S. A far more careful accounting of the complexities of these Jazz heads and Cuban tales really needs to be told.

Saludos,

Berimbau

Posted: **Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:38 am**

Berimbau:
"This exchange of cultural capital between Cuba and the U.S. has been intensifying now for nearly 100 years. Could this more RECENT musical interchange have been the source for the perceived "swing" in Cuban music, or the clave timeline in Jazz? Does one really have to invoke the largely assumed and as yet unnamed "Mother Africa" as the ultimate source?"

Hi Berimbau,
I'm not sure, but I think you may be responding to my post. But then again, you don't seem to be addressing my post directly, so I'm not sure. Sorry if I'm being dense here, but if you are responding to my post, I don't think I understand and perhaps you could give it another shot for my sake.

My interest in this thread is with the subject of swing and my previous post discussed my own personal attitude towards it. The perceived "swing" in certain Cuban music is as real as the perceived "swing" in be-bop. Certainly the bata rhythms pre-date jazz.

What is swing? The qualities of any musical element referred to as a "feel" are subjective and this is especially true of swing. The New Harvard Dictionary of Music calls swing "an intangible rhythmic momentum in jazz", adding that "swing defies analysis; claims to its presence may inspire arguments". The only specific description offered by this esteemed reference is the statement that "triplet sub-divisions contrast with duple sub-divisions". I tend to gravitate towards these controvercial technical and theoretical aspects because of I've been writing for the past decade. I used to hate theoretical discussions of clave-based music and I did not think of the music in that way. I understand why such discussions annoy some people.

I understand that you have a history of scholarly work, so I'd be bummed if you are are taking issue with my previous post.

"It don’t mean a thing - if it ‘ain’t got that swing!"

-David

Posted: **Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:54 am**

I play regular with a band who play swinging tunes.We also play other styles.I started to play tumbao with swing because i couldnt find anything else to play that didnt get in the way of the music.But i think it adds a solid rhythmic base to the tunes.I know some people who hate swing tumbao and completely dismiss it as a waste of time.
Depending on the tune ,sometimes i play some 6/8 grooves.I find they fit in well over swing.Check out some Babatunde lea where he uses bata toques with bebop.
.Niall.

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Congas in a swing jazz 'big band'?