Any pianist here ? - montuno help needed

[pini]

Hi All,

i usually post at the timbales forum but now i have a piano montuno question.. hopefully someone around here also playes piano ( what are the chances ?)


I have a question about playing montuno ( of any kind ) , givven a basic sample , that matches the chords written.
Usually charts only conatain chords and i dont understand how to apply my pattern to the new chords.

an easy one is if i have a 2 bar montuno and i know its basic pattern ( lets say the root is C ) , and every 2 bars in the chart of the song is written a new chords i am just shifting my pattern as much step needed and play it like that. ( or am i wrong ?? )

the more difficult one is if i have chords changes in the 2 bar themselfs that are not part of my pattern chord proggression. what do i do then ??

i have attached an example of a 4 bar montuno that is givven as a sample and for the rest , only the chords are mentioned ( notice that there are chord changes right in the first bar after etc. : Cm7 -> F7)

can anyone help ??

p.s

what i first thought that by looking at the first bar of the pattern : there is a use of G ( which is the first note of the chord Gm6 and then there are 8th notes Bb and D which are 3rd and 5th notes ) , so by that analogy i tried figuring out the upmentioned bar : i mean : playing first C ( which is the first note of Cm7 and then Eb and G )....

now another question... ( sorry for that ) , how can i determin in which octave to play the notes ? am i suppose to pick it from the sample pattern...

thanks,
pini.

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... ontuno.JPG

[JohnnyConga]

I don't play piano but I would recommend Rebecca Mauleon's 2 books...101 Montunos and her first book "Salsa Guidebook" for piano and ensamble...."JC" Johnny Conga...

[zaragemca]

Greeting Pini,the arrengement are going to feature the progression in relation of the musical phrase of the horns,(trumpets,Saxs,Tromboms,etc...I could see that they are giving you the base key, the intro of the chords,(with the metric displayed),and the chord progression is written under pentaghrams,...The Time signature is 4/4, and the rest of the bars are showing how the musical phrase is going to be place in each bar,also is showing the chord progression on the botton like, Gmi 6,..Dmi 7,...G 7,..Cmi7,..F7,..etc. And showed what the left hand is doing to support the chords,.also it shows that some progression are going to be play 'as ligato',but....It is written for somebody which knows harmony, you need to be familiarized with the chord progression and alternatives..The guiding for playing the octave is the 'Key Root' of the musical phrase.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1145555370

[Isaac]

Hey Pini,
How are you...
send me your email.

Isaac from JCR
funkytradition@yahoo.com

[franc]

pini,
i asuming you knows music theory??you can invert the chords or triads. every chords are constructed in mayor thirds and minor thirds. all scales is made of half tones, right?? it depends on the scale if is a mayor scale or a minor scale. to construct a mayor scale you for ex. in C Mayor scale the root is a C you count 4 half notes to the next, in this case becomes E. which will become a mayor third. from E you count 3 half notes which becomes G which is a minor third. this is called a Mayor triads. is like a formula. lets say in the 3 bar you start the first inversion which is E a third, G is a fifth and C an octave. the second inversion will be starting in G, C, E and so on up the scale. in your chart you post you can see it!! that is written in G minor scale.since this a minor scale, you construct from minor to mayor. the formula is inverse ex. you count three half notes to built the third minor and four half tones to the mayor third, also when counting the half notes never count the starting note!! you can see it in the first and second bar after the pick up notes which is a G, then count three half notes which is Bb, this is a minor third. right?? from Bb you count 4 half notes which gives you an D. which is a mayor third cause you counted 4 half notes.then you add the fifth which is E , right and end with the root which is G or use the next G octave higher . the inversion is as follow root, third and fifths back to root or octave higher from root. from the roots the inversions could starts in the third ,fifth and so for.remember the formula1, 3, 5, 8. is kind of hard for me to explain cause of language limitation. yes you can use the octave from the root . it all depends in the arrangement and sooling technics. i hope i have shed some light. my best to you and all in the forum. franc

[Duke]

Hi Pini,
It sounds like you are a bit confused with montuno’s and the manuscript you presented. I play and study piano, but my main domain is the tumbadoras. I will try my best to shed some light on your questions (I hope I don’t confuse you).
1) First of all you have to see what key the piece is in (in this case B flat), then is it B flat Major or is it its relative minor – reading your manuscript the chord structure is in G minor (B flat Majors relative). As far as the chord changes every couple of bars, you will have to work out the scale degrees for G minor this way you will have a thorough understanding of the chord structure that is taking place in the piece (is it modulating, in a Major or minor etc).
2) Looking at the manuscript it is written for piano (in the grand staff) and also for the bass (upright or electric) guitar (the third line – under the grand staff). Note that the bass guitar starts at the beginning of the piece (bar 1), but in the grand staff (bar 1) it is for the horn pick-ups. So be careful what line you are reading – I think this is a big part of your confusion.
3) As far as the clave direction goes it is in 3-2 with a pick-up (hence the vamping sequence of the piano and the bass line)
4) Finally the octave will be written on the manuscript, as far as I can see (the manuscript isn’t that clear to read the finer dynamics) the right hand is in G minor position in concert pitch, left hand one octave down


My friend I hope this very brief explanation helps you and has not confused you
I would strongly suggest that you hook up with a good piano teacher, as this is going to help you understand music and reading more manuscripts.
Johnny C is correct Rebecca Mauleon's books are a great resourse.
Regards Duke

[pini]

Hi All ,

first of all thanks for the replies.

J.C i have rebeca's books. in fact the sample i gave above is the intro of "Camaleon" by Ruben Blades and is from one of her books.

franc , duke , thanks for the explanations but i think i didn't explain my self very good. i will try again.

first of all... i am familiar with chords , scales and reading the manuscripts , thats not my problem.

what i want to know is , givven a sample pattern how do i extend it to the next bars ( where only the chord are mentioned there ). and what i mean by that is that i seek for the sequence that worked so far and imply it over the next bars.

so , first of all , is there a guidline , sequence , some kind of rules that i can follow ?

for example to emphasize my point i place another example with a little analysis ( in an excel ) i made to try find the "rules".

the first thing i noticed and correct me if im wrong is that like in the bass line , you start playing at the end of bar X , the note from chord of bar X+1 , which i can live with

for the first 7 bars in the example i find some kind of rules with the exception of bar 2 where i marked it with "?".

and than on bar 8 came the "surprise" that broke the sequence...

and if i go back for the first example ( the intro of camaleon ) , i would continue the montuno on bar 6 ( chord Cm7 ) and start it with a C , (which is the first note of the chord , in analogy to G which for the first note of the chord Gm6 in bar 2 , and also the leading notes at the end of bar 5 are also related to C BUT!!!! , when i hear the camaleon track i am preaty sure they play there G as the first note of the 6 bar)

did i made think complex ??

hope i u got what i mean i relate to that...
btw , if someone will just write me how will u continue the example and transcribe right have of the piano for bars 6 - 9 , it would be a huge part of the explanation...

thank u all..
pini

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... xample.JPG

[pini]

excel files are blocked here... so here a jpeg...

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... ple_Ex.JPG

[zaragemca]

I knew it was going to happened, I was just waiting for it,becouse I know that some books aren't going to answer the thousands of questions which musicians always have....I can tell you that,many times in the arrangements something doesn't work in relation of the musical phrase of the horns(related to what type of horns they are using in the recording),and they have to do some changes to the original charts right there in the studio),which isn't reflected in the sheet of music,sometimes they might be looking for an specific chromatic/effects,(but explaining that would take another book)....I guest that the first charst is what they would call head/chart, where the original intro is just a repetitive secuence for a number of bars,until they get into the montuno parts.,...but again I'm just guessing since I couldn't see the horns parts. .Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1145641043