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Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:52 pm**

This is a "splinter-thread" from the Video Thread.

Jorge: >>Using your terminology of duple and triple pulse clave, the duple pulse rumba clave used in most guaguanco sounds different from the triple pulse rumba clave used in Abacua and Columbia.<<

Hi Jorge,
There is definitely a difference between duple and triple pulse rumba clave and triple/duple polymetric claves and claves with slightly displaced strokes that are neither exactly triple of duple. There’s quite a few ways to express rumba clave.

>>If you use the same system of writing them and they are written the same, how do you distinguish on paper the difference between them? The 3+ in duple pulse falls at a different (absolute) time than the 3+ in triple pulse, but I don't see how this is distinguished in the notation you are proposing.<<

In the following examples the patterns will properly align if you copy and paste them into a word document using size 12 Courier font.

Here’s rumba clave in triple pulse:

||X.X..X.X.X..|| rumba clave
||1+a2+a3+a4+a|| beats and pulses (subdivisions)

Here’s rumba clave in duple pulse:

||X..X...X..X.X...|| rumba clave
||1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a|| beats and pulses (subdivisions)

The "pulse names" of rumba clave’s five strokes are: 1, 1a, 2a, 3+, 4. Main beats 1 and 4 of course are identical in triple and duple pulse. The three "interior" clave strokes do not align and would flam if you were to play the two claves simultaneously. The triple and duple "a" pulses are a twelfth of a (main) beat apart and create a "closed" flam when played together. The triple and duple "+" pulses are a sixth of a beat apart and create a "open" flam when played together.

Anyway, I think you can see how the two ways of subdividing the main beats are easily distinguished in my notation above. If I could use standard Western notation in this email, it would be even more clear, since I would be able to write simultaneous triple and duple subdivisions in the same measure. Did I answer your question?

>>This is not just a theoretical discussion. The song you mention by Afrocuba de Matanzas, Aguado Kuloya, is a perfect example. It is a Columbia Matancera, with the guataca playing a straight 6/8 (actually 12/8 in your notation). The guagua is playing straight 4. In 1998 I took the workshop that Afrocuba gave in NYC, and Luisito Cancino showed me the guagua to Columbia just like that. I mentioned to him that the straight 4 guagua didn't sound like it fit quite right with the rest of the 6/8 parts in the Columbia. He got mad and told me that is how you play it. I asked Regalao (who was my teacher at that time) and Enrique Mesa and they just said that Columbia has both 6 and 4, and you could play it either way.

Notating those two stick patterns is no problem using standard notation. I’m not sure what the problem is.

>>I have grown to prefer using the stick part from Abacua, which is in 6, as the guagua part for the Columbia, because to my ear it locks in better with the guataca and sounds cleaner. That is why I really was amazed when I heard the song by Columbia del Puerto. In that song, it sounds like the second half of the clave for both the guataca and guagua are in 4, and it sounds locked in. Unfortunately, the live recording is poor and you can't hear the tumbador, but the guataca and guagua can both be heard. Now there are 3 ways I have heard to resolve this tension between 6 and 4 in the Columbia. Playing quinto and going back and forth between 6 and 4, sometimes it is helpful to have a straight 4 pattern going on the guagua against the guataca in 6, but I guess it is a matter of preference which you choose.<<

It would seem so. I believe that all rumba is polymetric; the four main beats are simultaneously subdivided into three and four pulses. At the very least, the quinto is always polymetric.

I prefer the straight 12/8 bell with the straight 4/4 guagua in columbia because it helps me execute the metric shifts between triple and duple pulse. I like that tension now, but could not stand it when I first began studying this music. It’s definitely an acquired taste. Yeah, the bell and guagua are flamming some strokes, but that’s a good thing! When the quinto flams strokes, it is alluding to this polymetric dynamic that’s an inherent part of the music.
-David

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:02 am**

Thanks for clarifying, David. I agree with everything you say, except for one thing I did not understand in your previous post. You said to count both triple and duple pulse clave as 1 2 3 4. I took that to mean you could write them both in 4/4 time and have them look and sound different. What little I remember of my music writing theory is pretty rusty, and the only way I can think of to write the triple pulse clave in 4/4 is to write eighth note triplets with a rest between the first and third note, etc. I guess you could do that, although it would look a lot less simple than writing the pattern in 12/8. Is that what you meant?

Edited By jorge on 1195344249

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:21 am**

jorge wrote:I agree with everything you say, except for one thing I did not understand in your previous post. You said to count both triple and duple pulse clave as 1 2 3 4. I took that to mean you could write them both in 4/4 time and have them look and sound different. What little I remember of my music writing theory is pretty rusty, and the only way I can think of to write the triple pulse clave in 4/4 is to write eighth note triplets with a rest between the first and third note, etc. I guess you could do that, although it would look a lot less simple than writing the pattern in 12/8. Is that what you meant?

No. What I meant is both the triple pulse structure and the duple pulse structure are based on four main beats:

triple pulse structure:
1+a2+a3+a4+a

You can write it in standard notation as one measure of 12/8 (notice the twelve pulses). The main beats are represented as four dotted quarter-notes and the pulses (subdivisions) are represented as twelve eighth-notes.

duple pulse structure:
1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a

You see, they both have a beat scheme of 1-2-3-4.

You can write the duple pulse in standard notation as one measure of 4/4 (notice the sixteen pulses). The main beats are represented as four quarter-notes and the pulses are represented as sixteen sixteenth-notes.

If you play both triple and duple pulses simultaneously, the main beats (1-2-3-4) are identical. Both the triple pulse structure (12/8) and the duple pulse structure (4/4) share a common beat scheme: four main beats.

I brought this up because you were using a beat scheme of 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4 for the duple pulse and a beat scheme of 1-2-3-4-5-6 for the triple pulse. You were not relating them to a common beat scheme. Their common beat scheme is not just a theoretical matter. It's also a matter of how the music is felt and danced to, is the basis for the generation of cross-rhythm and therefore, is the basis for the entire clave matrix itself.
-David

Edited By davidpenalosa on 1195345559

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:02 am**

Thanks, David. I don't have much experience looking at parts written in 12/8, or writing the clave in one 4/4 measure using sixteenth notes. I am most familiar with 6/8 and 4/4, and have always written clave based patterns using 2 measures of either. With that notation, the main beats that coincide are 1 and 3 in 4/4 and 1 and 4 in 6/8, and no sixteenth notes are explicitly used.

Writing the clave in one 4/4 measure requires sixteenth notes and rests. I am not sure which pair of time signatures allows easier comparability of polymeters, I have not really done this before. Using the 4/4 and 6/8 requires 2 bars per clave but both use eighth notes. The 4/4 and 12/8 each put clave in one bar but use sixteenth and eighth notes, respectively. Do you find the second way easier for comparing polymetric rhythms?

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:43 am**

Jorge:>> I don't have much experience looking at parts written in 12/8, or writing the clave in one 4/4 measure using sixteenth notes. I am most familiar with 6/8 and 4/4, and have always written clave based patterns using 2 measures of either. <<

Yes, that convention most likely comes from jazz. Popular Cuban music used to have clave in two measures of 2/4.

>>With that notation, the main beats that coincide are 1 and 3 in 4/4 and 1 and 4 in 6/8, and no sixteenth notes are explicitly used.<<

Yes. Therein lies the problem. The 4/4 charts are actually written in 2/2 (cut-time), even though 4/4 (common time) is used. The main beats are half-notes in the conventional method of notating duple pulse you described (two measures of "4/4").

People try to get around this confusion by calling the beats "the pulse" or "the feel" of the music. This only creates more problems. For example, as you said, the main beats are 1 and 3 in this method. If you ask a funk drummer what the back beat is, he/she will say beats 2 and 4. A trap drummer won’t say beat 3 of each measure. Using "pulse" for main beat does not help. Has anyone every said the "back-pulse", or the "up-pulse"? Beat is the main temporal referent and it’s important to identify the main beats.

However, you understand where the main beats are and that’s the important thing.

>>Writing the clave in one 4/4 measure requires sixteenth notes and rests.<<

You can use sixteenth-notes and eight-notes, instead of sixteenth-notes and rests. In other words, writing clave in one measure does not require the use of more symbols.

>>I am not sure which pair of time signatures allows easier comparability of polymeters, I have not really done this before. Using the 4/4 and 6/8 requires 2 bars per clave but both use eighth notes. <<

That violates the conventions of writing though. Those eighth-notes don’t correlate when used that way.

>>The 4/4 and 12/8 each put clave in one bar but use sixteenth and eighth notes, respectively.<<

That is the textbook way of writing those meters as they relate to each other.

>>Do you find the second way easier for comparing polymetric rhythms?<<

Only in terms of representing the four main beats, but that’s a biggie. Beat counts are contained within a single measure. It is not "correct" to count four beats across two measures. I do it sometimes, but I’d rather keep it simpler and have the four main beats within a single measure. That way, people grasp the concept much more easily.
-David

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:54 am**

David,
Very interesting. Thanks for clarifying the theory and providing another, probably more logically consistent, framework to think about these polymetric rhythms. Every once in a while, it is helpful to stop playing for a minute and think about the theory. Now, back to the rumba. Ahora si la rumba esta buena...

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:04 am**

Posts from the video thread (posts now deleted from that thread)

jorge wrote:I just noticed that the bell (guataca) part is not a straight 6/8 pattern. I could be wrong, but it sounds like the first half of the bell part is 6/8, but the second half is 4/4. The guagua is in 4/4, and is in rhythmic harmony with the bell. Usually with a 4/4 guagua and 6/8 bell, the rhythms clash and it doesn't sound quite right. The problem is in the third to last note of the bell part (written as capital X below), which falls a little earlier in a 6/8 than the capital X in a 4/4. In this song, they are exactly coincident. There is a slight hesitation before the third to last note of the bell part.
1 3 1 3 1
4/4 .x|x.xx.x.x|x.X.xx.x|x. guagua
1 4 1
6/8 .x|x . x . xx. X . x.x|x. guataca

where x is a note and . is a rest. The downbeats in the 4/4 coincide in time with the 1 and 4 of the 6/8, but the capital Xs are a tiny bit apart and normally clash. In this song, they don't because the X in the 6/8 is delayed just slightly, making the second half of the 6/8 measure sound like 4/4. Usually we resolve this clash by playing the clave and guagua in 6/8, but in this song, the guagua is straight 4/4 and the bell stretches to fit that.

David Peñalosa, are you out there? I know you have thought about this, what do you think? Anyone else hear the 4/4 section of the bell part? Or am I imagining it?

FROM DAVID:
Hi Jorge,
Sorry I missed your question in regards to the columbia video clip posted by Changuiri on Oct. 09. That must have been during the unfortunate period when my computer was in the repair shop. I think you are correct that the guataca is not consistently in triple pulse. These type of stroke displacement techniques are often difficult for me to detect though.

In comparison, the 12/8 guataca and 4/4 guagua on Afrocuba’s columbia ("Raices Africanos") sounds like a straight ahead "12 bell" to me. What do you hear going on there?

Those charts of claves with slightly displaced strokes, posted by James awhile back were very interesting. What I thought I was hearing was not always what the graph revealed.

Jorge, it looks like you are counting the duple pulse (subdivisions) as two sets of 1-2-3-4 and the triple pulse as 1-2-3-4-5-6. You should count them both as one set of 1-2-3-4 per clave, especially if you are going to do poly-metric comparisons.

One cycle of duple pulse clave fits into:
1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a

One cycle of triple pulse clave fits into:
1+a2+a3+a4+a

This way, the triple and duple pulses share a common scheme of four primary beats (where you should tap your foot). The six beats in triple pulse are the secondary beats: they are cross-beats.

A practical benefit of building all clave-based music on a cycle of four beats is that the two meters relate. For example, the five strokes of rumba clave are 1 1a 2a 3+ 4 in both triple pulse (12/8) and duple pulse (4/4). There are many more examples of direct triple/duple correlation when you use the correct beat scheme common to both.

I loved seeing that video of Airto with Freddie Hubbard after watching several of Bongo’s clips and reading the responses. I forgot how Airto had a lack of conga technique. Dave, there was plenty of conga technique info out there in the 80’s. Airto never seemed interested in learning it though. He’s also not into keeping clave consistent. He’s a master in his own field though. I was listening to a lot of Airto and Freddie Hubbard before I got my first set of congas. Airto was the most influential percussionist in my life until I got my first congas and my first Mongo record.
-David

FROM JORGE:

David,
Good to hear from you. How are you doing? Thanks for responding to this question. I know you are one of the people who has thought the most about this.

Using your terminology of duple and triple pulse clave, the duple pulse rumba clave used in most guaguanco sounds different from the triple pulse rumba clave used in Abacua and Columbia. If you use the same system of writing them and they are written the same, how do you distinguish on paper the difference between them? The 3+ in duple pulse falls at a different (absolute) time than the 3+ in triple pulse, but I don't see how this is distinguished in the notation you are proposing.

This is not just a theoretical discussion. The song you mention by Afrocuba de Matanzas, Aguado Kuloya, is a perfect example. It is a Columbia Matancera, with the guataca playing a straight 6/8 (actually 12/8 in your notation). The guagua is playing straight 4. In 1998 I took the workshop that Afrocuba gave in NYC, and Luisito Cancino showed me the guagua to Columbia just like that. I mentioned to him that the straight 4 guagua didn't sound like it fit quite right with the rest of the 6/8 parts in the Columbia. He got mad and told me that is how you play it. I asked Regalao (who was my teacher at that time) and Enrique Mesa and they just said that Columbia has both 6 and 4, and you could play it either way.

I have grown to prefer using the stick part from Abacua, which is in 6, as the guagua part for the Columbia, because to my ear it locks in better with the guataca and sounds cleaner. That is why I really was amazed when I heard the song by Columbia del Puerto. In that song, it sounds like the second half of the clave for both the guataca and guagua are in 4, and it sounds locked in. Unfortunately, the live recording is poor and you can't hear the tumbador, but the guataca and guagua can both be heard. Now there are 3 ways I have heard to resolve this tension between 6 and 4 in the Columbia. Playing quinto and going back and forth between 6 and 4, sometimes it is helpful to have a straight 4 pattern going on the guagua against the guataca in 6, but I guess it is a matter of preference which you choose.

FROM DAVID:
I'm taking this discussion on polymeter into a new thread: "rumba and polymeter".
-David

Edited By ABAKUA on 1195351891

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:07 am**

jorge wrote:... Now, back to the rumba. Ahora si la rumba esta buena...

That's right! What's a guy like you doing home on a Sat. night?!! There's got to be drumming going on somewhere.

I'm off to play bata for singers and dancers. Good talking with you.
-David

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:15 am**

Jorge, there are two tracks by that group Columbia del Puerto on the CoraSon label's "Real Rumba" CD (now called "La rumba está buena"" and available at the itunes store, where you can hear them play that style very clearly.

I loved that style from the first moment I noticed it, but also just as quickly gave up ever being able to play it that way at rumbas here in the US..."Oye, no e' así! KA! ka-TA! ka TA KA TA!!!!"

That was one of the first rumba CDs I bought and I highly recommend it, by the way...

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:27 am**

You guys are killing me! David with your Saturday night AP music theory lesson, and Guarachon, that quote is right on target, I don't know how many times I have heard that in Central Park and other rumbas! Abakua, thanks for reorganizing the threads and moving that part over to here, much more appropriate.

By the way, that line in my last post about the rumba was a big lie, wishful thinking. Right now, Saturday night, I am home, supposed to be working, rewriting and compiling a 150 page course book for the medical students and trying to figure out how to teach them about diagnostic and screening tests, Bayes' Theorem, and preventive medicine. The thing has to be at the printer 9 am Monday morning, and between now and then I have 40 pages to rewrite tonight, then tomorrow I have to bring my daughter to visit a college, go to a rumba class with Jose Carrion, and help coordinate a birthday party rumba with some serious rumberos coming. And on top of that, Guarachon, now you made me go downstairs and get that Real Rumba CD to listen to those columbias by Columbia de Puerto and Cutumba. Much as I would like to continue avoiding work, I won't go into my comments on Cutumba's new CD Ritmos Cubafricanos vol 2 right now.

Work hard, party hard. Now, back to work. I guess I am going to have to break down and take my drug of choice to cure avoidance behavior - a Bustelo espreso black with too much sugar, put that rumba CD on the headphones, then work all night.

Bye.

Edited By jorge on 1195356998

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:52 am**

Thanks for the great explanations. Columbia de Puerto really lock that in! I keep coming back to that CD, each time I learn a bit more. Peace

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:32 pm**

I think it's instructive to explore the 4/4 version of the standard bell when analyzing polymetric columbia stick patterns. This pattern has not been mentioned. The standard bell pattern contains both rumba and son clave within it.

||X..X..XX..X.X..X|| 4/4 standard bell pattern

||X.X.XX.X.X..|| 12/8 standard bell pattern

Some arrangements play the standard bell pattern in a kind of triple/duple mix, or with slightly displaced strokes.
-David

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:02 pm**

guarachon63 wrote:Jorge, there are two tracks by that group Columbia del Puerto on the CoraSon label's "Real Rumba" CD (now called "La rumba está buena"" and available at the itunes store, where you can hear them play that style very clearly.

I loved that style from the first moment I noticed it, but also just as quickly gave up ever being able to play it that way at rumbas here in the US..."Oye, no e' así! KA! ka-TA! ka TA KA TA!!!!"

That was one of the first rumba CDs I bought and I highly recommend it, by the way...

Guarachon, Jorge, David,

Yes that "real rumba" cd is necessary!...and the youtube video is probably one of the best examples of columbia that i have ever seen, dance and all...especially the tall skinny guy...its a shame that rumberos in NYC...don't want to give that 4/4-6/8 combo a try but what can one do....David...i haven't forgotten about that Eliel...i'll send you some more tracks tonite...

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:03 pm**

With all respect to the members,

I would abandon the idea of working clave with western notation.

I would simply listen to the top players, and the best recordings in the tradition with headphones, record yourself, listen to the tape and listen for the feel. It should have a very flowing and musical feel with serious groove. for some reason, when one listens to a recording of themselves they can hear if its not working. one would think we would play it right if we can hear its wrong!!

Then, play over the recordings with a loud clave and see if you can play exactly over the clave on the recording so it 'disappears'.

Its important to do this with several masters recordings, as the style varies heavily. I would note the differing clave in Matanzas and Havana, which is significant.

Then, finally, play with Cuban born players who were reared in the tradition and see what they say. Play the style they are familiar with, ie Havana usually.

I would only listen to Cuban born players, when it comes to this feel. I wouldn’t work with them on clave, unless they are a top player, or were taught by a top Cuban player, and were reared in the tradition.

Its a feel thing, as one post in the past indicated with actual recordings graphically represented over western notation, a very cool post. Im sorry i dont remember who did the work, but it was fat.

Because clave is the basis for the entire groove, it has to be played with this very human feel.

For example, if you played clave from a drum machine, no matter if a human 'tapped' it in, or its programmed, it wont inspire a really driving rumba.

Why is this? Even if its a fat version of clave picked up from a masters track, it still is dull and lifeless.

This is due to the shifts in the feel of clave. the clave player listens to the others, and, at times, drives it, or playes it really straight, or drags a Yambu into sweet bliss... etc.

Thats why the listening and playing with others who know is the only way to get it.

Hope that helps,

Tony

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:57 pm**

blango wrote:Its a feel thing, as one post in the past indicated with actual recordings graphically represented over western notation, a very cool post. Im sorry i dont remember who did the work, but it was fat.

Tony,

I think your talking about that work that James (taikonoatama) did, he has it on his blog.

http://rumbaclave.blogspot.com/

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polymeter in rumba - simultaneous triple & duple subdivisions