"cinquillo-based rhythms"

[davidpenalosa]

Hi,
I'm bringing this over from the Bata Drums section.I’d like discuss the concept of "cinquillo-based rhythms" mentioned there.

Most Afro-Cuban rhythms I’ve encountered are clave-based. That is, they consist of two rhythmically contrasted cells or halves. I am speaking of "clave" here as a concept, the governing principle, not any specific timeline pattern. Using my definition of clave then, plena, iyesa, makuta and afoxe are all clave-based. They are two-celled rhythms.

Some rhythms are truly single-celled, but most Afro-Cuban rhythms are two-celled. Those rhythms that use single-celled bell patterns (tresillo, cinquillo, etc.) typically express the two-celled structure in the drum parts or other rhythmic elements. Even though makuta uses the single-celled cinquillo pattern, the caja part is definitely two-celled and defines clave within the percussion ensemble.

From what I have observed, bomba is a single-celled rhythm and therefore, it could be referred to as cinquillo-based. Cinquillo is a single-celled pattern and is a common bell part in bomba.

A lot of calypso music appears to be single-celled. Interestingly though, the melodies in panorama (steel drum) music are consistently in 2-3, even though the composers are not consciously thinking in terms of clave.
-David

[Tonio]

David,
would it be safe to say that cinquillo based rhythms are of 2/4 time signature? How does danza/contradanza fit into this?

T

[davidpenalosa]

Yes, if we specify that the basic subdivisions of the main beat are sixteenth-notes. The Cuban contradanza, habanera have single-celled rhythmic structures. The danzon, which came decades later was the first written music to be based on the two-celled clave structure.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

A lot of calypso music appears to be single-celled. Interestingly though, the melodies in panorama (steel drum) music are consistently in 2-3, even though the composers are not consciously thinking in terms of clave.

Hi David and group,

I find that all of the rhythms I summed up, encompassing the rhythms you define as one-celled as well as the rhythms you identified as two-celled, have the cinquillo as a rhythmic guide, PLUS a latent, felt (or even played) two-celled structure that can be translated into clave terms. Moreover, I haven't come across a Bomba tune that did not feel like 2-3 clave. Perhaps Jorge Ginorio can join us at this point?

Thomas

[ralph]

David, Thomas, glad to see this discussion has somewhat developed and evolved from where it started. Thomas you raise an interesting point in your 2-3 clave analysis of bomba. I may have felt the presence of clave in bomba but never really analyzed it any further. I have to listen to some bomba to see if i make the same connection. I do know as I know you guys are aware that clave is used w/ plena all the time. I don't know if we can lump plena into the plethora of cinquillo based patterns but if so, there are various groups that play a rumba or 3-2 clave plena. Just go to youtube and type in "bombaya"....also on the Fariñas album "Cajon para Muertos" he starts off a makuta song with the cinquillo bell pattern on top of the rumba clave and stops playing the cinquillo to go right into the guagua never changing the underlying tumba tres golpes pattern, "gallo no pone huevo!!..." check it out. Hey guys what about tumba francesa? Can we add this to said list?

Jorge, whats up bro!? Whats your take...

[congamyk]

I don't understand all of the discussion and over analysis of "single-cell" and "two-celled" construction within African folkloric musical styles. The static component of clave' is really simple. It's constant and doesn't fluctuate. The different parts are relatively constant/static with some variation and improvisation. The only truly complexity is within the role of the quinto. Perhaps more discussion and analysis should be dedicated to the improvised and leadership role of the quinto or perhaps even chordal harmony of modern folkloric music rather than on the clave. In my opinion, this music isn't sophisticated and/or complex enough to warrant so much over-analysis.

[ralph]

In my opinion, this music isn't sophisticated and/or complex enough to warrant so much over-analysis.[/quote]



interesting...
when you say "quinto"
are you talking about the lead drum's role in role in bomba? (i.e. primo)
plena? (i.e. requinto)
makuta? (i.e. caja)

quinto is reserved for rumba styles...what we are "over analyzing" is the relationship between cinquillo based rhythms in the diaspora and on top of that the possible clave structure found in these rhythms (which may or may not always be the case and if so would make them more clave based than cinquillo or even both)....whats wrong with that? And how in the world is this music not sophisticated enough to warrant "over analysis" like you mention? What does the clave component being static have to do with analyzing cinquillo based patterns where clave is not found?

You are talking about something completely different here....

[congamyk]

No I'm not, I know what is being discussed.
It's simply not that complex and the over-analysis is almost laughable.
The most hard-core congueros would laugh at 99% of these "clave" discussions.
Where the clave "is found" or where "it's not found" is simple!
Why speculate over something so simplistic and static?

It's a free country - just my opinion.
The music was created by simple people living simple lives with no written language.
Just play.

[davidpenalosa]

[quote="congamyk"]I don't understand all of the discussion and over analysis of "single-cell" and "two-celled" construction within African folkloric musical styles.

That is quite obvious.
-David

[davidpenalosa]

[quote=" I find that all of the rhythms I summed up, encompassing the rhythms you define as one-celled as well as the rhythms you identified as two-celled, have the cinquillo as a rhythmic guide, PLUS a latent, felt (or even played) two-celled structure that can be translated into clave terms.

Hi Thomas,
If there is a two-celled structure, wouldn't the part defining that structure, like the caja in makuta for example, be the main rhythmic guide? Once the caja was playing, you could put the song on the wrong side if you were only using the cinquillo pattern played on the guagua or bell as your guide.
-David

[ralph]

David, i see your point about the caja (in your example the caja being the guide as opposed to the cinquillo), but doesn't what the caja play fall in line with the cinquillo regardless? I mean if we look at the cinquillo starting on the one and playing a distinct motif over and over again, correct me if i am wrong but the motif we are looking at is something like this:

X XX XX (forgive my elementary use of notation)
1 2 3 4

if this is the case, than it would be tough to say that the caja would come in cruzao (unless the cajero didn't know what he was doing?)

[Thomas Altmann]

David:

If there is a two-celled structure, wouldn't the part defining that structure, like the caja in makuta for example, be the main rhythmic guide?

I never looked at it this way. Where does it say that the longest rhythmic cycle has to be the main rhythmic guide? Neither would I say that the caja is the main rhythmic guide in Makuta or Iyesá. There must rather be something to guide the cajero.

All I have noticed is that there seems to be a tendency in Bomba to phrase over a hidden two-bar concept that coincides with all the other rhythms we mentioned, and it goes like this:

| x_xx_xx_ | xx_x_xx_ |

I would define the rhythm in the second bar as a variation of the cinquillo.

In tresillo this would be:

| x__x__x_ | _x_x__x_ |

This phrasing shines through the llamador solo work. I am not sure whether the up-beat bell variation, which is so typical for Iyesá, has ever been played in Bomba arrangements, at least in a band situation. If you are firm enough in Puerto Rican music, you may know better. I would not hesitate to apply it to Bomba as well, because I feel it fits perfectly. I have heard it once either in Bomba or in Plena, but I didn't put it down in a notice book of precedents, so I can neither tell for sure, nor can I prove it. I just noted for myself that that's the way it is. This is the bell pattern:

xx | __xx__xx | _X_X__xx |

Ralph: The caja pattern fits over the cinquillo pattern in either direction. But let's not forget the song. The song will reveal the clave feel that determines the cajero's playing.

Thomas

[tamboricua]

But let's not forget the song. The song will reveal the clave feel that determines the cajero's playing.

Thomas[/quote]

Guys,

Same true in the Bomba Folklórica. Either the Cantador or Cantaora will dictate the Clave direction.

Thomas: From the top of my mind some Bomba Coros that come to mind in 3/2 direction:

Campo: Traditionally accompanied with Bomba Sicá.

Campo yo vivo triste
cada dia sufirendo mas
hay Dios que sera de mi
si no bailo esta Bomba me voy a morir...

Oí una Voz: traditionally accompanied with Bomba Holandé.

Oí una voz
Oí una voz
Oí una voz divina
del cielo que me llamo

I'm sure there are more...

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio

[Thomas Altmann]

Wow! Thank you, Jorge!

Are these songs on record somewhere?

TA

[davidpenalosa]

[quote="Thomas Altmann"]David: Where does it say that the longest rhythmic cycle has to be the main rhythmic guide?

Hi Thomas,
I was not speaking of the longest rhythmic cycle per sé, but specifically what you referred to as parts with a "two-celled structure that can be translated into clave terms". Once a two-celled part enters, all other two-celled parts must conform to it. Otherwise, they will be out of "clave". For example, if the makuta caja enters first, the song will be guided by the caja rather than cinquillo, since there are two cycles of cinquillo per caja part. Or vise versa - if the song enters first, the caja will be guided by the song rather than cinquillo for the same reason. If you are playing a single-celled part, like the cachimbo or mula drum, it doesn’t matter.

That particular iyesa bell part you notated does share a common rhythmic motif (your "X" is caps) with plena.

It’s true what you say about that two-celled bell part used in bomba. Interestingly though, both halves are embellishments of tresillo (the three-side). Although my experience with bomba is very limited, I haven’t detected a two-celled structure expressing clave, not even expressed abstractly. I spent a number of years hanging out with the late Luís "Chichito" Cepeda, the former lead drummer for the famous Cepeda family and he told me that bomba is not in clave. The way he played primo reflected that view. At the time, I found it difficult to accept the idea that bomba is single-celled, that "clave" did not apply. Today though, I lean more towards accepting Chichito’s view. By the way, this was folkloric bomba, so the 3-2, 2-3 concept did not apply.

Plena on the other hand, is definitely in "clave".

Ralph,
If I understand your question, the issue is that there are two cycles of cinquillo (single-cell) per caja part (two-celled). So yes, the caja and cinquillo cannot be in a cruzado relationship, but the caja can be cruzado to any other two-celled part.

I have only the most superficial understanding of the tumba Francesa repertoire. Looking over Adrian Coburg’s charts now, it appears that several of the rhythms are single-celled. Some of the premier (lead) drum phrases he’s notated have a two-celled structure, but it’s not consistent enough for me to venture an opinion.
-David