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Hi,
I'm continuing this discussion from the "cinquillo" thread.

David: >>>The 3-2, 2-3 terminology signifies harmony’s dominance over rhythm in popular music; the chord progression is the prime referent rather than the rhythmic progression of clave.<<<

Thomas: >>It signifies a metrical as opposed to a clave approach, nothing more.<<

If by "nothing more", you mean it’s only a metrical concept, without any harmonic component, then I have to strongly disagree. The concept and terminology was developed for the specific purpose of identifying which measure (side of clave) the harmonic progression begins. That’s how the concept continues to be used today by composers and arrangers.

In the absence of a chord progression, wouldn’t clave always define the metric structure, wouldn’t clave always define "one"? Why do we say that clave is the rhythmic key, if it doesn’t at least serve this most basic of functions?

>>I believe that - in most cases - I can hear a metrical "1" without any European chord changes, but with nothing more than a unison melody line of an Afro-Cuban song.<<

Is the metrical "1" you hear most often an accent on the beat?

>>I'm afraid that for many people who come off of my cultural environment, but without my many years of musical experience in the genre, this approach is actually the only chance.<<

Why not speak of the three-side and the two-side in matters of rhythmic accents and metric orientation without actually using the terms 3-2 or 2-3? Wouldn’t that serve the same function without unnecessarily implying a harmonic component? I don’t see how saying "that part enters on the two-side" is any less helpful than saying "that part is in 2-3".

>>>Perhaps converts are the most obnoxious too.<<<

>>What do you mean, you are fishing for what?<<

I was fishing for laughs, or at least a chuckle. That was my attempt at some self-deprecating humor, as I realize that I can be pretty dogmatic at times.
-David

Dear David,

you're right - we have covered this subject already. Basically ...

I have a question: Did you ever explore the connection between harmonic structure and clave direction? Is there any connection at all?

The concept and terminology was developed for the specific purpose of identifying which measure (side of clave) the harmonic progression begins. That’s how the concept continues to be used today by composers and arrangers.

The start of a harmonic progression coincides with the metrics of a piece or a formal unit thereof, if we interpreted a possibly syncopated or anticipated chord properly. There is no other way I could understand your axiom. After all, the terminology is not reserved for composers and arrangers, even if Mario Bauza invented it. If I were in your place, I would interpret Bobby Sanabria's information about this accordingly.

In the absence of a chord progression, wouldn’t clave always define the metric structure, wouldn’t clave always define "one"? Why do we say that clave is the rhythmic key, if it doesn’t at least serve this most basic of functions?

This is the question that is the most complicated to answer. As a matter of fact, the answer to this question would actually explain why in folkloric music metrical orientation (and with it the clave direction terms) is to be taken with reservation. There definitely are Afro-Cuban songs (like the ones I referred to in the Arará repertory), that suggest the idea that at one time in African music the clave must have had priority over metrics. These are the instances where I hear either the "1" or the clave in a strange place and have to re-organize the whole phrasing in order to be able to work with it.

And these are exactly the instances where I have to explain to my students that they have to modify their Euro-centric view of 3/2-2/3 clave. - And the point where I share your notion that there is no 3/2 or 2/3 in folkloric music; the difference being that I still work with those terms for the sake of simplicity, because in most (Afro-Cuban) folkloric music they still apply.

Is the metrical "1" you hear most often an accent on the beat?

I don't really think so.

I don’t see how saying "that part enters on the two-side" is any less helpful than saying "that part is in 2-3".

The latter is easier to say, it is more familiar with more fellow musicians, and it refers more to the overall rhythmic feeling of the entire part, which is what I mean to express.

That was my attempt at some self-deprecating humor, as I realize that I can be pretty dogmatic at times.

Of course there isn't anything obnoxious about your way to put things. I get along fine with your way to be dogmatic, because to me it proves a kind of dedication and involvement that I am sorely missing in most of my contemporaries. I am rather grateful to communicate with you - and learn from you.

Thomas

Thomas:>>I have a question: Did you ever explore the connection between harmonic structure and clave direction? Is there any connection at all?<<

me:
For all my harping about the harmonic element, I have to admit that I’m actually quite weak in the area of harmony. From what I’ve been able to gather though, there is no prescribed way in which the tension/release of clave should fit with harmonic tension/release. Sonny Bravo has stated flat-out at there is no connection whatsoever. In Rebeca Mauleon’s "101 Montunos" (pg.39), she states: "all I-IV-V-IV progressions [are] in two-three clave". Kevin Moore of "The Tomas Cruz Conga" books and Timba.com pointed out to me that most progressions from the 30’s to the 80’s were in 2-3 though.

>>There definitely are Afro-Cuban songs (like the ones I referred to in the Arará repertory), that suggest the idea that at one time in African music the clave must have had priority over metrics. These are the instances where I hear either the "1" or the clave in a strange place and have to re-organize the whole phrasing in order to be able to work with it.

And these are exactly the instances where I have to explain to my students that they have to modify their Euro-centric view of 3/2-2/3 clave. - And the point where I share your notion that there is no 3/2 or 2/3 in folkloric music; the difference being that I still work with those terms for the sake of simplicity, because in most (Afro-Cuban) folkloric music they still apply.<<

So, other than those rare instances such as some Arará songs, the 3-2, 2-3 concept works for you in a folkloric context.

The learning and enjoyment is mutual.
-David

Hi David:

So, other than those rare instances such as some Arará songs, the 3-2, 2-3 concept works for you in a folkloric context.

I see no reason why I shouldn't say that "Obalube oba e" is in 2/3, or "Abukenke" is in 3/2. And I'm not even talking about Yambú or Guaguancó.

One example that is easy to misinterpret, clave-wise as well as metrically, is the song sequence for Oyá "Yansa iwá mi o" - "Bogbo wa inyále" - "Bogbo bragada", on the Papo Angarica Vol.2 CD. I am mentioning this one in particular, because I have seen how Armando el Surdo interrupted a toque (!) because the young akpwón started the song in the wrong place; to be specific, in the same wrong place where I would have started it without my previous studies. What I want to say is that even Cuban Lucumí singers don't have that clave feeling ready built in. That's a myth! They have to study, if not in the same way, but in a similar way as I have to.

I transcribed the songs with the clave on top, like the "Cantos Lucumí", but in Finale. So if you are interested, I can send you a TIF-file.

Thomas

[quote="Thomas Altmann"]... I have seen how Armando el Surdo interrupted a toque (!) because the young akpwón started the song in the wrong place; to be specific, in the same wrong place where I would have started it without my previous studies. What I want to say is that even Cuban Lucumí singers don't have that clave feeling ready built in.<<

Hi,
I don't know if this is something typical of Lucumí singers or not, but the late Lazaro Ros, Cuba's most famous akpwón, had a very weak sense of clave. Usually the akpwón begins the song and it's the iya player who's required to know where clave is and how to call in the drums to the song. Using the clave "compass" was apparently not part of Lazaro's process of learning the songs. Occasionally in performances with the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional, Lazaro was required to bring the song into the drums. A friend of mine accompanied Lazaro to a Havana TV station where just such a performance was to be taped. Lazaro was nervous in transit to the station worrying if he was going to come into the drums correctly or not. When the Conjunto then performed at the station, he came in wrong. I have great sympathy Maestro Ros, because I've had similar anxieties and made similar mistakes. However if I keep getting confused about some musical detail, I eventually confront it and learn how it correctly goes. I find it intriguing that Lazaro didn't do this.

I would love to receive those songs as a TIF-file. Thanks!
-David

I don't know if this is something typical of Lucumí singers or not ...

No, I don't believe that. The guy I was talking about was about 20 years old. You cannot compare him with Lazaro Ros. However, I heard exactly the same thing particularly about Lazaro. I have heard that the drummers of the CFNC were happy when Felipe Alfonso was singing. I think Lazaro's strength was more in repertory and knowledge about the language and religion. I have heard akpwones who were marvelous in time and clave.

Thomas