African musical traits in African American music

[blavonski]

Swing is not an original African Rhythmic element introduced to Jazz. Swing is a uniquely African American creation as a result of the African rhythmic conception in the americas, USA in particular adapting itself to european american musical forms. And before it began to swing, it was more of shuffle and or rocking feeling as a result of drummers like Baby Dodds and Zutty Singleton going from Strong beats 1&3 to weak beats 2&4 with added eigth notes. And it was brought to the fore in american popular music by Louis Armstrong. And as Mr. Armstrong has demonstrated, it is more feeling than any musicaologist can precisely define in strict musical terms.

OK, so it’s a feeling (agreed), that musicologists can’t define, but you can, and your definition excludes music from Africa.

“SWING: An intangible rhythmic momentum in jazz. …Swing defies analysis; claims to its presence may inspire arguments. But it is meaningful as a general concept: in swing and bebop, ‘swinging’ triplet subdivisions of quarter notes (or of eighth notes at slow tempos, halves at fast tempos) contrast with duple subdivisions . . .”—The New Harvard Dictionary of Music (1986: 818).

Like wise the Afro-cuban swing feeling is uniquely its own creation.

Actually certain aspects of Afro-Cuban music share the same qualities of swing as straight ahead jazz. But yeah, generally speaking, the two have many significant differences.

. . . it is interesting to note that you repeatedly refer to Jazz rhythmic elements as if they lie outside of an African rhythmic concept. .

No, you have misunderstood me. I was attempting to differentiate between those African rhythmic elements, which are a part of jazz (say, up to the post bop era), and those African rhythmic elements, which are not.

. . . it is obvious to me that your relation to and understanding of jazz music is an academic one or maybe also casual listener.

OUCH!!!

ouch!.tiff

Now, you are fighting dirty! You’ve called me an academic, who can’t play!! It’s “obvious” you say? I’m afraid your powers of perception have failed you, because you were not able to perceive a lifetime of playing music, including jazz. May I suggest that we stick to the substance of the thread topic, rather than attempting to deny the other’s credentials?

Do you play Jazz, drums or any other instrument?

Yes. By the way, I first performed “Footprints” in the 1970s, on flute, and later, on percussion.

. . . I can answer, refute that statement with one instrument and that is the Hi-Hat. Traditonally it guides the rhythm on Beats 2&4, a binary division of the 4/4 meter and it is repeated, it is continuous.

It’s true what you say. The repeating hi-hat only makes your case in the most general sense. If you listen to highlife, juju, samba, and son montuno, you will hear several significant shared African rhythmic elements not present in jazz. I thought this was obvious.

And concerning your mention of counterpoint, to my knowledge, it is a European compositional, melodic device/technique.

Yes, but most music terminology originated from Western music traditions. Do you have a better term for the interaction of contrary attackpoints as expressed in African and Diaspora musics?

As I understand it, the clave whether 3:2 or 2:3 is divided over two bars 4 beats per measure. By contrast, african american 3 over 2 patern is divided and contained with in one bar, 4 beats per measure algamation.

The three-over-two cross rhythm is like you say, one bar (if we write clave in two bars). The "one bar" structure pervades African music, as well as Afro-Cuban music. The bass line in Mongo’s “Afro Blue” is an obvious example.

Gotta go. I have a busy day ahead of me.

-David

Hi David,

First, I want to write that, I didn't call you an acedemic who can't play, I stated what I percieved your relationship to JAZZ to be and I made no mention of your playing abilities; I asked a direct question. But by the above recent post I think I was half correct in my presumption. So, are you a classically trained musician?

Now, concerning your responses to what I wrote, you've done a nice of job evading and misconstruing some important points I made.

1.)"OK, so it’s a feeling (agreed), that musicologists can’t define, but you can, and your definition excludes music from Africa."
I didn't attempt to define Swing, I simply stated its proginator, that being African Rhythm concepts, and I certainly didn't eliminate African sources from that. Why on earth would i do that?... it's my whole contention here. You've misconstrued my statement that, swing is an African american creation not an African one. That is to say, Africans didn't bring the finished concept of swing with them to the Americas.

2. " It’s true what you say. The repeating hi-hat only makes your case in the most general sense. If you listen to highlife, juju, samba, and son montuno, you will hear several significant shared African rhythmic elements not present in jazz. I thought this was obvious."
Oh come on man, really ! My mention of the Hi-hat refuted your claim on the money. It represents what you said was not present in Jazz....A General sense? Well, if you think that, then,with all due respect, you're understanding of Jazz is bereft of some important fundamentals here. And what does son Montuno, samba and highlife have to do with the point I adressed that you made regarding the lack of non-african rhythmic elements in Jazz?

3.)" Yes, but most music terminology originated from Western music traditions. Do you have a better term for the interaction of contrary attackpoints as expressed in African and Diaspora musics?"
yes, Polyrhythms.

I'll end here, because I have nothing to add really to what I previously wrote, especially given the fact that your arguments to them are a bit weak. Good luck measuring and attempting to find as well as define what has always been there.

Good Vibrations,
Blavonski

[congamyk]

jeez I've had about enough of this guy. If Jazz didn't have any African elements how the hell did black people invent it then?

I honestly think many people can't even read or write intelligently. I feel like I'm responding to children.
I didn't say that jazz didn't have a single African element. Go read what I said.

And your question is silly.
What you just asked is as stupid as assuming that "rap" was invented by "Africans" using African elements - just because they were "black".
Did Africans "invent" rap too? No, black Americans invented rap.

Early jazz music developed from all things American - not African.
Many of the musicians were mixed Creole, other or of European ancestry.
And they didn't "invent" anything from scratch, the music developed over time from mixed elements of all of the existing music they heard at the time.
Nearly all of the elements were Euro/American; the instruments, the chords, the melodies, the lyrics... all American.

Why didn't some oakies from Oklahoma start playing it?

Maybe because "Oakies" weren't even around yet.
Aren't you a teacher of some sort and don't even know American history?
Another reason public schools are crap.

[Anonimo]

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR

[davidpenalosa]

I didn't call you an acedemic who can't play, I stated what I percieved your relationship to JAZZ to be and I made no mention of your playing abilities; I asked a direct question.

That’s true. I stand corrected. You didn’t say I “can't play” You said it was “obvious” to you that my “relation to and understanding of jazz music is an academic one, or maybe also casual listener.” Does that mean I merely have a theoretical (‘academic’) relationship to jazz, or I just listen occasionally? Am I reading you correctly?

But by the above recent post I think I was half correct in my presumption.

Since you have chosen to share that you have a presumption about me, why don’t you come out and say what that presumption is?

So, are you a classically trained musician?

I think to say I’m a classically trained musician would be to overstate the extent of my formal training.

. . . you've done a nice of job evading and misconstruing some important points I made.

It was not my intention to evade or misconstrue important points you made. In rereading the thread I see that we are telescoping in and out from specifics and generalities and talking past each other. I'm sorry for my contribution to that. I’m going to try to address a few of your points with as much specificity as I can.

. . . swing is an African american creation not an African one. That is to say, Africans didn't bring the finished concept of swing with them to the Americas.

The only definition The New Harvard Dictionary of Music gives for swing is the “general concept” that “‘swinging’ triplet subdivisions of quarter notes (or of eighth notes at slow tempos, halves at fast tempos) contrast with duple subdivisions.” That definition of swing also applies to rhythmic phenomena in African, and other Diaspora music besides jazz.

If by swing, you mean certain rhythmic developments that are particular to North American jazz, then I agree that Africans didn't bring that finished concept with them. It's also practical to specify “swing,” to differentiate from an “even-eighth feel.”

However, jazz drumming does not contain a lot of other African elements, such as the binary guide-pattern (like clave), or multi-part counterpoint built upon repetition.

My mention of the Hi-hat refuted your claim on the money.

OK, so you concede my point about the binary guide-pattern? Your example of the jazz the hi-ht on the 2 and 4 doesn’t constitute a multi-part counterpoint analogous to African, Cuban, Brazilian, or Haitian rhythms. The repetitious bass drum of an oompapa band doesn’t either. Historically, the more complex jazz drumming gets, the more free and expressive it becomes. Jazz drumming is in a class all its own, which is what I think you are saying when you state “swing is an African American creation.”

Do you have a better term for the interaction of contrary attackpoints as expressed in African and Diaspora musics?

yes, Polyrhythms.

That’s a fine term. I prefer rhythmic counterpoint, because the contrapuntal interaction is specific and systemic.

Dig what Franky Donlop is puttin down on his reide cymbal here: You can fast forward toward the end to see him playing it. It is the difintive ride pattern and has been around a long , long time.
(tat ti tat, tat tat or tat tat, tat ti tat)
http://youtu.be/gLmnmja72vA
I would post more and earlier one but don't have time.
Here's again one of my favorite Jazz drummers displaying it all in his own elegant way:http:
http://youtu.be/kbXK-Q1jsy0

I dig what Donlop is puttin down, but I definitely don’t hear the specific African-like 6/8—4/4 structures heard on “Footprints.” On “Footprints” the primary beats are systematically contradicted by the secondary beats played by the bass line. At 2:20 the time changes to 4/4; the primary beats remain the same, but the bass now plays a tresillo-based part. Sure, Tony Williams is swinging (not playing even-eights) throughout, but this is the earliest example I’m aware of, of a straight ahead (not Latin) band systematically contradicting the meter in this way.

Certainly I hear Franky Donlop playing cross-rhythm masterfully, but I’m hearing a lot of duple subdivisions (4/4) grouped in three’s, like starting at 5:51 in his solo in Belgium:

http://youtu.be/kbXK-Q1jsy0

I would call that 4:3, not 3:2 or 6:4. Do you hear Donlop systematically playing 3:2? If yes, can you cite the minutes and seconds on the video for me? I know that will take a moment to do, but it would be greatly appreciated.
-David

[pcastag]

jeez I've had about enough of this guy. If Jazz didn't have any African elements how the hell did black people invent it then?

I honestly think many people can't even read or write intelligently. I feel like I'm responding to children.
I didn't say that jazz didn't have a single African element. Go read what I said.

And your question is silly.
What you just asked is as stupid as assuming that "rap" was invented by "Africans" using African elements - just because they were "black".
Did Africans "invent" rap too? No, black Americans invented rap.

Early jazz music developed from all things American - not African.
Many of the musicians were mixed Creole, other or of European ancestry.
And they didn't "invent" anything from scratch, the music developed over time from mixed elements of all of the existing music they heard at the time.
Nearly all of the elements were Euro/American; the instruments, the chords, the melodies, the lyrics... all American.

Why didn't some oakies from Oklahoma start playing it?

Maybe because "Oakies" weren't even around yet.
Aren't you a teacher of some sort and don't even know American history?
Another reason public schools are crap.

The next year, on May 2, 1890, Congress passed the Oklahoma Organic Act, which organized the western half of Indian Territory into Oklahoma Territory

jazz scholars consider generally Buddy Bolden ito be the first bandleader to play the improvised music which later became know as Jazz. He was the first "King" of cornet in New Orleans, and is remembered by the musicians of that time period as one of the finest horn players they had ever heard. He is remembered for his loud, clear tone. His band starting playing around 1895,

Maybe they were idiot.

Obviously you are too dumb to note sarcasm.

My kids go to public schools, they are very smart, I am a public school product, I consider myself fairly smart.

You might not be a public school product, but you sir are most definitely an idiot.

But since you are so much more enlightened than the rest of us you can just consider my rantings those of a lunatic child like publicly educated fool.

Fine by me.

[pcastag]

jeez I've had about enough of this guy. If Jazz didn't have any African elements how the hell did black people invent it then?

I honestly think many people can't even read or write intelligently. I feel like I'm responding to children.
I didn't say that jazz didn't have a single African element. Go read what I said.

And your question is silly.
What you just asked is as stupid as assuming that "rap" was invented by "Africans" using African elements - just because they were "black".
Did Africans "invent" rap too? No, black Americans invented rap.

Early jazz music developed from all things American - not African.
Many of the musicians were mixed Creole, other or of European ancestry.
And they didn't "invent" anything from scratch, the music developed over time from mixed elements of all of the existing music they heard at the time.
Nearly all of the elements were Euro/American; the instruments, the chords, the melodies, the lyrics... all American.

Why didn't some oakies from Oklahoma start playing it?

Maybe because "Oakies" weren't even around yet.
Aren't you a teacher of some sort and don't even know American history?
Another reason public schools are crap.

The next year, on May 2, 1890, Congress passed the Oklahoma Organic Act, which organized the western half of Indian Territory into Oklahoma Territory

jazz scholars consider generally Buddy Bolden ito be the first bandleader to play the improvised music which later became know as Jazz. He was the first "King" of cornet in New Orleans, and is remembered by the musicians of that time period as one of the finest horn players they had ever heard. He is remembered for his loud, clear tone. His band starting playing around 1895,

Maybe they were idiot.

Obviously you are too dumb to note sarcasm.

My kids go to public schools, they are very smart, I am a public school product, I consider myself fairly smart.

You might not be a public school product, but you sir are most definitely an idiot.

But since you are so much more enlightened than the rest of us you can just consider my rantings those of a lunatic child like publicly educated fool.

Fine by me.

PS, I thought you were done with this thread? Guess not, you couldn't help but pop in and see what us children were doing could you? Anyways, I'm definitely done with your euro centric garbage, even when faced with evidence such as the pictures of the gourd like instruments that the slaves in the US were making you resort to insults and denigrating those around you, much as I am doing to you. Hope you get some joy and happiness out of it. Save your rmoney and send your kids to private school Myk.

[pcastag]

To david and blavonski

You guys need to listen to some of the old baby dodds solo's it's clave al over teh place ( new orleans or brazilian style) clear as day. It's inherant in how these guys feel the music, if you talk to a lot of cuban musicainas they on't talk about clave when they play, it's just inherant in what they do, as natuaral as waking up in teh mornign and going to bed at nioght. Listen to spooky drums nomber one, he starts is solo with a typical marching intro then goes straight into 2-3 new orleans or samba style pattern.

[davidpenalosa]

PC,
Thanks for turning me onto "Spooky Drums #1." I don't hear clave in that piece though. I do hear 4/4 cross-beats (duple subdivisions grouped in threes) extended over several measures. It's awesome! If you play five consecutive 4/4 cross-beats, the result is a figure that shares four of the five strokes of clave:

X . . X . . X . . X . . X . . .

That figure is played several times. I wouldn't say that "Spooky Drums #1" implies clave, but if that's how you hear it, I certainly understand why.

I'm very happy to have this tune.
-David

[blavonski]

Hi David,

"Since you have chosen to share that you have a presumption about me, why don’t you come out and say what that presumption is?"

I thought I made that clear already. It is an obvious academic excersize that you and partner are engaging in here regarding your attempts to intellectually access and comprehend specific elements in a music, (namely Jazz) that, you may not have a deeper, cultural and pratical relationship to. Now that's not a judgement on personally, it's simply how I'm pickin' up what you're puttin' down here.

. . . swing is an African american creation not an African one. That is to say, Africans didn't bring the finished concept of swing with them to the Americas.

"The only definition The New Harvard Dictionary of Music gives for swing is the “general concept” that “‘swinging’ triplet subdivisions of quarter notes (or of eighth notes at slow tempos, halves at fast tempos) contrast with duple subdivisions.” That definition of swing also applies to rhythmic phenomena in African, and other Diaspora music besides jazz."

Frankly David, I'm not concerned with or interested in what any lexicon scribbles down to define what I've been doing naturally my whole life. If your thinking too much about it, then you're possibly not feeling as you aught to be.
As Ornette Coleman once expressed, "...to reduce music analytically is to reduce it to nothing very important."
Swing brother Swing!!

"If by swing, you mean certain rhythmic developments that are particular to North American jazz, then I agree that Africans didn't bring that finished concept with them. It's also practical to specify “swing,” to differentiate from an “even-eighth feel.”

Yes, I agree, It is practical to differenciate even 8ths from so called swing 8ths, particularly to musicians who have no previous emotional, physical relationship to the feeling that that rhythmic concept represents. The notated swing 8th phenomenon, like the notated 2 feel Phenomenon and many others are the result of transcribing Jazz sounds, feelings and rhythms and putting ithem into western notation form so that those to whom these feelings/concepts were foreign could read it, play it and or dance it like what they were seeing and hearing . Many early Jazz musicians couldn't even read the simplest music notaion. And the genius himself, Mr. Armstrong's ( who for all intent and purposes invented the modern concept of Swing), reading of musical notaion was rudimentary at best. It wasn't and still isn't neccssary in creating vibrant and expressively satisfying human music that swings.

"However, jazz drumming does not contain a lot of other African elements, such as the binary guide-pattern (like clave), or multi-part counterpoint built upon repetition."

You answered your own question here below David.

"Certainly I hear Franky Donlop playing cross-rhythm masterfully, but I’m hearing a lot of duple subdivisions (4/4) grouped in three’s, like starting at 5:51 in his solo in Belgium...."



"OK, so you concede my point about the binary guide-pattern? Your example of the jazz the hi-ht on the 2 and 4 doesn’t constitute a multi-part counterpoint analogous to African, Cuban, Brazilian, or Haitian rhythms..."

No, unfortunately, I don't. There's a flaw in your analyses here. For, the Hi-Hat does in fact constitue a multi part counter-Rhythm analogopus to whatever African diapsora musics you want to name. And , it is in effect when the Jazz trap drummer is playing snare rolls/syncopations and or 1&3 on the Tom as well as the sincopated ground beats/patterns on the Ride cymbal, and or bass drum against that constant Hi-Hat accompanianment. That's why it functions as it does, it's elemtary my dear Watson.


"I would call that 4:3, not 3:2 or 6:4. Do you hear Donlop systematically playing 3:2? If yes, can you cite the minutes and seconds on the video for me? I know that will take a moment to do, but it would be greatly appreciated."

Focus on Mr. Dunlops ride Patterns in his extended solo. But, because you don't here it doesn't mean it isn't there. Similar to an implied Clave in cuban music. However, I beleive that, all of what you're searching for is systematically present in this solo. http://youtu.be/kbXK-Q1jsy0


Oh, yeah. @Leedy, that's a good point refferencing the Grio to Rap and Blues.
There's great book: "Roots of the Blues" by, Samuel Charters. I read it many years ago.
Also, I think that Congamyk is possibly being missunderstood a bit. From what I've gathered from his contributions to this topic, he's maintaing the idea of differenciating between strictly African musical elements and specific African-American ones that have created uniquely American music and I'll add singing and dance forms. And, I agree with that thought. I haven't interpreted his thoughts (on Music specifically) as attempting to exclude African musical elements in the Americas at all. However, his statement below is too general and a bit missleading:
"Early jazz music developed from all things American - not African."

I would rephrase it as Jazz being a music created in America by African-Americans out of very specific African and European cultural phenomenon.

Good Vibrations,
Blavonski

[pcastag]

PC,
Thanks for turning me onto "Spooky Drums #1." I don't hear clave in that piece though. I do hear 4/4 cross-beats (duple subdivisions grouped in threes) extended over several measures. It's awesome! If you play five consecutive 4/4 cross-beats, the result is a figure that shares four of the five strokes of clave:

X . . X . . X . . X . . X . . .

That figure is played several times. I wouldn't say that "Spooky Drums #1" implies clave, but if that's how you hear it, I certainly understand why.

I'm very happy to have this tune.
-David

Actually this is what he plays. listen to the tom accents right after the press roll


..x..x..x..x..x. you have the first down beat on the one which is incorrect, it's exactly the same as the clave used in bossa nova,it is not implied it's actually played. It's also not five duples grouped in three , for the beat to repeat itself in 4/4 time the last one ( which begins on 4 of the second bar) has to contain a grouping of four eighth notes to fall on the two of the following measure, which it does. He does that twice, then plays

..X..X..X..X....XX then of to the wood blocks

In cut time standard notations the beats would fall on

bar 1
2, and of 3
bar 2
1, and of 2, 4



That as I stated is not implied, its a clear 2/3 figure that is clearly stated at the beginning of the solo. Just like the new orleans clave that is played in the second line, I really think this figure developed independently in afro-american music unless there is evidence to the contrary.
PC

[congamyk]

The next year, on May 2, 1890, Congress passed the Oklahoma Organic Act, which organized the western half of Indian Territory into Oklahoma Territory

jazz scholars consider generally Buddy Bolden ito be the first bandleader to play the improvised music which later became know as Jazz. He was the first "King" of cornet in New Orleans, and is remembered by the musicians of that time period as one of the finest horn players they had ever heard. He is remembered for his loud, clear tone. His band starting playing around 1895,

Maybe they were idiot.

No, you are still the idiot as the term "Oakie" was not used until well after the Oklahoma Organic Act and well after jazz was being played.
The term "Oakie" was first coined and publicly used around 1907, after the land rush.
So next time you try to use a non-cleverly disguised racial slur, at least know when it was first used.
I'll give you credit for at least avoiding the more obvious "hillbilly".

[davidpenalosa]

The only definition The New Harvard Dictionary of Music gives for swing is the “general concept” that “‘swinging’ triplet subdivisions of quarter notes (or of eighth notes at slow tempos, halves at fast tempos) contrast with duple subdivisions.” That definition of swing also applies to rhythmic phenomena in African, and other Diaspora music besides jazz.

Frankly David, I'm not concerned with or interested in what any lexicon scribbles down to define what I've been doing naturally my whole life. If your thinking too much about it, then you're possibly not feeling as you aught to be.

You have chosen to have an intellectual conversation with me, about something I have a life-ling relationship with. Instead of conceding points when you are shown to be wrong, or offering a rebuttal, you deny the validity of the very analysis you are involved in.

As Ornette Coleman once expressed,"...to reduce music analytically is to reduce it to nothing very important."

There you go again. You have spent a considerable amount of time putting forth your analysis of swing in this thread.

. . . the Hi-Hat does in fact constitute a multi part counter-Rhythm analogous to whatever African diapsora musics you want to name.

This is clearly a place where we disagree. Your analogy breaks down beyond the broadest generalities. Have you studied, or played any type of traditional African, or Afro-Cuban drumming?

I still disagree with your analysis of the Dunlops solo, but I’m happy to have watched it. It's a great piece of music.
-David

[Anonimo]

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR

[davidpenalosa]

Actually this is what he plays. listen to the tom accents right after the press roll
..x..x..x..x..x. you have the first down beat on the one which is incorrect, it's exactly the same as the clave used in bossa nova,it is not implied it's actually played. It's also not five duples grouped in three , for the beat to repeat itself in 4/4 time the last one ( which begins on 4 of the second bar) has to contain a grouping of four eighth notes to fall on the two of the following measure, which it does. He does that twice, then plays

..X..X..X..X....XX then of to the wood blocks

That as I stated is not implied, its a clear 2/3 figure that is clearly stated at the beginning of the solo.

PC,
Thanks for correcting my placement of the cross-pattern. If it was a clear 2-3 [clave] figure, wouldn't that second stroke come one subdivision earlier?

I really think this figure developed independently in afro-american music unless there is evidence to the contrary.

I find the evidence to lean towards periodic Cuban influence, but I'm open to having my mind changed. It's a fascinating subject. John Storm Roberts and Gerhard Kubik present a lot of convincing evidence of the Cuban (and other Caribbean) influence in NOLA music. This is corroborated by several of the old musicians themselves. Historically, the pendulum has swung from that influence being denied, to more recently, being over stated. Overall, it's difficult to make absolute statements on the matter, because there's a considerable amount of subjective interpretation involved.
-David

[pcastag]

Hey David, you should also check out "tom tom workout" by baby dodds, both solos are on the album Talking and Drum Solos/Country Brass bands I can email you the MP3's if interested.

In the tom tom workout solo his riff that he builds the solo around is

X.X..XX.X..X.... repeating, with the first four notes on the high tom and the last two decending creating a bombo type effect.

he them goes to a more tresillo type riff including bombo

X..X....X..X.... again first note mid tom then second note low tom then back to the first riff..

This shows how African American drummers were very early on phrasing around either a distinctive 3/2 or 2/3 pattern OR tresillo riff, the very same common themes found throughout the african diaspora.