Is it me or is this tune crossed?

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Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby Yuca » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:41 pm

I'm a fan/collector not a player, but I like to know some basics. Therefore I would appreciate some thoughts about this song:



It seems to me that the song is en clave, with a clave change from 3-2 to 2-3 at around 1.36, BUT if you listen to whoever is playing the clave, they play 2-3 all the way through, repeating the 2 side at 1.36 when there's a clave change (i.e. they jump the clave).

If I'm right that the rest of the band - well certainly the bass player - is en clave starting 3-2 then moving to 2-3 at 1.36, that means for the 1st 90 seconds the song is crossed (due to the clave player).

¿Qué opinan amigos?
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Re: Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby CDEM » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:29 pm

i think the clave player is wrong
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Re: Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby jorge » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:01 pm

The clave player starts out 2-3 and it sounds counter to the melody and breaks played by the horns. To my ear, the clave player is playing on the wrong side from the beginning until 1:36, then the clave player flips the clave and it sounds right after that point.
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Re: Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby Yuca » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:05 pm

That's what I thought! Thanks for the opinions. I suppose the next question would be: why the hell would W Gorbea have someone playing clave on his track when they play it crossed for the 1st 90 seconds? It ruins the song imo.
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Re: Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby blavonski » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:52 pm

Hello Yuca,
Nice Latin Jazz tune. In my opinion there's nothing wrong here.
The tune begins on the 2 side of the clave and it doesn't change at all.
It maybe that the the Ponce horn riffs wich come in the middle of the measures and are right on 2nd beat of 2 side throws the listner off and that's taken as the down beat.? Or it maybe that, because the Montuno section, begins on the 3rd note of the measure and not on 1 and that the clave is not as audible at that point, the listner comes in on the wrong side of the clave. Also, the vocals start on the last note of the 7th bar of the last measure of the intro with horns and that can be tricky too if you're expecting him to start singing on the 1st bar of the next measure.

If you start counting the bars at one,(the down beat before the second beat of the 2/3 clave at the beginning of the tune) and keep counting throughout the song while vocaling the clave, you will realize that there are no hacks that wandered into the studio that day to play clave on this fine record. At least that's how sounds to me.
Good Vibrations,
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Re: Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby jorge » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:07 pm

If all is cool with the clave, then why does the clave player flip the clave at 1:36? Between the piano, the breaks and clave, there is some confusion of the clave feeling in the first part of the tune. The piano is playing a 3/2 clave in the beginning, and the clave player is playing 2/3, crossed to the piano and feeling of the song. There is some switching of the feeling of the clave during the next minute and a half of the song. It is not uncommon in salsa tunes for there to be confusion of the clave, especially in the earlier days, before the Mariel exodus from Cuba and when bands were learning how to do multitrack recordings with one or a few parts at a time.

But all of that is not a big deal. After 1:36 everything is cool and the song swings. The main thing about this song is the lyrics, so focus on those and don't worry about the clave crossing, 99% of the listeners and dancers will never notice. Unless there are a lot of Cuban musicians in the crowd...
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Re: Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby blavonski » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:54 pm

Jorge,
I don't hear any confusion at the beginning or anywhere else in the tune in regards to the Clave position and other instruments. The piano begins its line in the first bar of the tune which is the 2 side of the clave, the horns begin there melody there as well 8 bars later. The Guitar soloist begins his phrases on the 2 side. It all sounds fine and groovey to me in 2/3 clave. By the way I really like the medium tuning of the congas and Bongos here; the whole tune has a very warm and round sound to my ears. Thanks Yuca for posting it!
Good Vibrations,
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Re: Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby jorge » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:11 am

No big deal, 99% of listeners and dancers won't hear it. Check out the words and no worries. Como dice la cancion conservemos la amistad.
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Re: Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby caballoballo » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:54 pm

Depends on the dancer, nowadays people takes classes with emphasis on dancing in sync with the clave. If I'm dancing on 2/3 clave my left foot would be stepping forward on the 2nd beat of clave,if dancing 3/2 my left foot will step forward on the 1st Beat of the clave, at least that is my approach . If the song become cross it throws the dancer out of sync, rhythm, harmony with the clave.
About Wayne Gorbea song I played the clave throughout and found no changes, maybe was written like that as happened in the past on songs like Willie Colon calle luna calle sol, juana peña both are crossed , Willie Rosario el timbal de Carlitos the mambo is cross,Lebrons brothers lo tuyo llegará y se que sufriré where the clave stops at the break and the starts crossed , Orq la selecta oye mi bongó they mute the clave before the Montuno , Joey Pastrana rumbon melón, those are examples of bad arrangements or charts . On percussion charts (salsa music) many times the song starts on 3/2 clave throughout the body and across the pentagram you play 4 bars, 8 bars, 12 bars, ect and then you play 5 bars before the Coro and Montuno to make it odd so when the bells start playing the clave will become 2/3 which doesn't mean is cross. It is just a way to play in a better swing as it is the common thinking that playing in 2/3 clave is easier.
A good example of a cross clave is Larry Harlow song La cartera "Live" where the clave player after the first break is playing 3/2 where the song is 2/3. The timbalero is looking at him.
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Re: Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby blavonski » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:24 pm

I listened to the song again. And I think what is being perceived as a clave change is the fact that at the 1:36 + point in the tune and the last bar before the Montuno, where the singer repeats the end refrain...Compensara or something like that, the 3 side of the clave, (the last 4 Notes) is omitted and the clave begins immediatley again on the 2 side where the Guitar introduces the Montuno on 1 (Diownbeat) of that opening bar where 1 should be and that makes sense because the tune is in 2/3. And all other opening sections and dynamic parts are on the 2 side.
It is obvious to me that the tune was composed like that and the leader decided to discard the last bar of the 2/3 clave for possibly what Caballaballo mentioned, as a deivice to give the Montuno intro more swing.
It works for me. It's as if, by omitting the last 4 notes of the melody/Chorus section, the Montuno has a more sycopated introduction. Whatever the reason for the omission, it doesn't in my opinion change the feeling of the 2/3 clave that the tune begins and ends in. And the intruments never get hung up anywhere through out the tune.
Good Vibrations,
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Re: Is it me or is this tune crossed?

Postby caballoballo » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:46 pm

Now that I have paid more attention to the 1:36 section of the songs I heard what you guys are saying. The clave pattern have to stop on the break and then start on 2/3 or the song would go cross. I think they did that to play the rest of the song on 2/3. Other than that maybe was written like that.
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