How many claves are there?

[Yuca]

1. Son clave and rumba clave - 2 different claves or 2 variations on the same thing?

2. Do other rhythms count as claves? E.g. 6/8 bell pattern, guajira clave, danzón clave. Personally I think they're repeating patterns but - as I understand it - their rhythms are not implied by the other instruments and arrangements, so they're simply rhythms/patterns/motifs and not claves. (N.B. I only know of guajira clave and danzón clave because someone mentioned them to me whilst trying to prove to me that there are many different claves.) The only claves I consider to be claves are son clave and rumba clave. But you're welcome to correct me!

Thanks for the opinions.

[burke]

Definitely my opinion would be that Son and Rumba are two different claves

I would also consider 6/8 clave a third one ... I can see how that could be debated though. Also isn't there a Brazilian or Bossa clave?

Are you familiar with "The Clave Matrix", by David Penalosa? He was [maybe still is] a member. I have it but haven't gotten into it yet ... too intimidating

If you like deep clave theory discussions go through David's past posts ... heavy and often over my head, but like I said deep thoughts when it comes to clave.

[Chtimulato]

Hi.

My 2 cents : I would also say there are four different claves : son, rumba, 6/8 and bossa nova. The last one can also be played in 3/2 and in 2/3, but I think the 2/3 direction swings better.

[jorge]

Here are a couple more Cuban claves that are true claves, not just rhythms played on claves, bell or sticks. The entire song is built around the clave.

Abakua has a clave, played on a bell, different from rumba clave and 6/8 claves used in bembe or guiro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR3RETmljE0

If you thought they were the same, you can hear the switch from rumba clave to abakua clave at 2:09, from 4/4 feeling of guaguanco to 6/8 feeling of abakua.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8-BL8uHVhw

Clave de Changui is another one, different from the others we have listed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4A51RA2IBI

[jorge]

There are definitely more than 2 claves in Cuban music. Try playing son clave or rumba clave with a changui group from Guantanamo and you will quickly (but politely) get kicked out of the song, as I experienced first hand in La Habana a couple of months ago sitting in with Son del Guaso. There is a distinctly different clave in Changui that is neither son nor rumba clave, as demonstrated by Taberas, director and bongocero of Grupo Changui de Guantanamo, in the track I posted. He really does know what he is talking about.
Likewise, if you play rumba clave in Abakua it will sound wrong. Rumba clave is 4/4 and has a different feel from Abakua clave which is 6/8 (but is not the same as the 6/8 bell parts you play in bembe or guiro). The easiest to hear difference is in the last 2 beats of the (3/2) rumba clave and Abakua clave. Listen to Yoruba Andabo track I posted, in the other Abakua track it is harder to hear the clave (ekon) playing. The Abakua clave will fit cleanly in the standard 6/8 bell (guiro or bembe) part but the rumba clave won't.

[jorge]

To answer the OPs first question, in my experience and opinion, son clave is definitely different from rumba clave, they have a different feel and are played in different types of songs. If you play rumba clave in a son, it sounds wrong and kills the "son" feel of the song. Likewise, playing son clave in a rumba doesn't sound right and the third beat (3/2) falls on top of the tumbador open tone, making it harder to hear that clave beat and killing the swing of the rumba.