New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styles

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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Chtimulato » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:37 pm

Thomas, I can see you answered me, but I can't read your answer (???)
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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Thomas Altmann » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:05 pm

I'll try again.

Hi Chtimulato,

Chtimulato wrote:I just noticed I posted this answer twice (this forum is sometimes mischievous), but couldn't find how to delete the supernumerary one... :)


Did you get an error alert after pushing "submit"? If you repeat the submit action, you are double-posting. I would copy the content of the original post (for safety) and first check whether it appears when you open the thread. In most cases it's already there. But sometimes it happens that it isn't visible as the last or new post on the list. I haven't found a way to delete a complete post, either. Once it's there, all you can do is deleting the content to diminish the space that it occupies.

So you are saying that Biguine is the actual rhythm rather than the overriding term for Martinican folklore music? Does it refer to the musical rhythm or more the dance? Was this the dance section that was originally taken out of the quadrille cycle? I know that music and dance are almost inseparable in Afro traditions, but there could be something like a primary connotation ...

The song "Choucoune" has been called a slow Méringue, so I conclude that Méringue cannot be a fixed rhythm or dance, but the general term for Haitian folklore music. Correct?

But if you dare to divert from the «orthodox» pattern with a 16th note in the wrong way, the ancients will look daggers at you, and you’ll have the shame of your life.


Firstly, I wouldn't be ashamed. If the veterans wanted me to play something different, I would just do it. Or I'd go home and do my own research in order to value their advice. You can't pretend being on their level, anyway; your lack of experience or maturity would show sooner or later. That's natural, and it would be immature on the side of the elders to not accept that. The demand for humility is probably part of an ancient educational system described by the German saying "Lehrjahre sind keine Herrenjahre" (apprenticeship years are not master years). I experienced this domineering attitude in Cuba as well, but I was old enough to know how to place it.

Secondly, I admit that I was thinking more of Calypso music than the Biguine. If I listen to the recordings of Lord Kitchener for example, the parts in the rhythm section differ enormously. Each tune has a slightly different movement, but on the whole, they are unmistakably identifiable as Calypsos. It appears to me that the rhythmic repertoire stems from the numerous cinquillo-based styles, of which there are examples also in Cuba (Makuta, Iyesá), although in Cuba, the single-bar cycles have to a greater extent evolved into two-bar patterns incorporating the clave. As long as the individual rhythmic elements come from that family, and as long as the constitutive markers are represented somewhere (like, somebody in the ensemble should be playing the darn "2+"), you are at least not going wrong. Maybe in Biguine the rules are stricter.

What's also important in playing Calypso correctly, is that it has its own swing, meaning a minimal deviation from the quantified evenness of the rhythmic subdivisions. I'm talking about a micro-timing that cannot be notated, and in Calypso, it is very subtle. It isn't even as obvious as the jazz swing or the Brazilian balanço - a loose feeling coming from a homeopathic dose of triplet interpretation.

One last remark about Harry Belafonte vs. "the real thing": The truth is that back in the 1950's and 60's, a lot of the authentic Trini Calypso music hasn't been up to the level of U.S.-American musical craftsmanship. Correct intonation, and even rhythmical precision were rare qualities. In the U.S.A., it wouldn't have passed for acceptable music, except for a small group of folklore buffs. Same for older Haitian music or early New Orleans Jazz. The only Haitian orchestra that came close to U.S.-American standards had been the one of Issa El Saieh (where Bebo Valdés used to play the piano, at least occasionally). And what is "real"? I think that Harry Belafonte is pretty real, too - as is his music! It is what it is.

Calinda/Calenda was a forbidden dance during slavery, because the settlers considered it was indecent.


I really don't know how that connects to the martial dance of stick fighting. I did a lot of bookish studies, as opposed to travelling the world and experiencing everything first-hand. Which in this case was a necessity, because no living person can tell exactly what a Calinda (Calenda, Caringa, Carenga) looked like at the time it was forbidden. Those ancient rhythms, namely Calinda, Chica and Yuba (Djuba) remain something of a mystery yet to be solved.

And a fisherman just called the radio to tell he had some fresh fish left for sale, giving his address.


That's sweet, man. Real life. I love that.

(check out the bramido, or « moose call »)


They call it siyé in Haiti. There's a Vodou rhythm named "Kongo siyé", where the segon drum applies this effect as a regular sound element.

A busy YouTuber is a young man called Jeff Pierre. Although his obtrusive self-marketing goes on my nerves, he is a fantastic drummer who makes his drum talk:



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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Chtimulato » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:09 pm

Did you get an error alert after pushing "submit"? If you repeat the submit action, you are double-posting. I would copy the content of the original post (for safety) and first check whether it appears when you open the thread. In most cases it's already there. But sometimes it happens that it isn't visible as the last or new post on the list.


That’s what happened to me, indeed. Maybe Mr. Admin will notice it and delete the supernumerary comment.


So you are saying that Biguine is the actual rhythm rather than the overriding term for Martinican folklore music?


Yes.


Does it refer to the musical rhythm or more the dance?


Both, my colonel (French joke :) )


Was this the dance section that was originally taken out of the quadrille cycle? I know that music and dance are almost inseparable in Afro traditions, but there could be something like a primary connotation …


Quadrille is another danse, in 4/4, also inspired by the settlers. There’s a singer called « commander » who conducts the dancer couples. Like in another dance called « haute taille ». There’s even a set of expression in Martinique saying « I don’t dance haute taille, because I don’t want anybody to command me ».
In the biguine (2/4), the cinquillo is to be heard in one bar. The quadrille pattern is rather a one bar 4/4 pattern or a 2 bars 2/4 pattern in my eyes, where you can clearly hear the clave, wether it’s played or not.
Here’s a ‘’modern’’ one, with a commander, and borrowings from kompa, sorry :



And another one :



And now, I’m gonna puzzle you a little bit more : there’s even a biguine quadrille (couldn’t find anything on YouTube, sorry) and the jazzy version of biguine, since the 50s, is called biguine wabap.



The traditional biguine and mazurka orchestras had so far a piano, a bass, a clarinet (very lmportant), and a guitar and/or a violin. And a singer, of course.

And here’s Kassav’s tribute to quadrille (it's a real tribute, not only entertainment music) :



And a bonus track. The quadrille ‘’arrives’’ at 01:28 :




Firstly, I wouldn't be ashamed. If the veterans wanted me to play something different, I would just do it. Or I'd go home and do my own research in order to value their advice. You can't pretend being on their level, anyway; your lack of experience or maturity would show sooner or later. That's natural, and it would be immature on the side of the elders to not accept that. The demand for humility is probably part of an ancient educational system described by the German saying "Lehrjahre sind keine Herrenjahre" (apprenticeship years are not master years). I experienced this domineering attitude in Cuba as well, but I was old enough to know how to place it.


There are 2 answers here.
1. Young roosters have to be calmed down and to play what they are told to play. In such music genres at least.
2. "Masters" are often "miserly", sparing with explanations. They can yell at you because you can’t play something they require, without explaining you what they want you to play, thinking you have to discover it by yourself… Because they learned it that way too. It’s a hard path, and one needs to really want it. But a little explanantion would be sometimes useful… :)


Secondly, I admit that I was thinking more of Calypso music than the Biguine. If I listen to the recordings of Lord Kitchener for example, the parts in the rhythm section differ enormously. Each tune has a slightly different movement, but on the whole, they are unmistakably identifiable as Calypsos. It appears to me that the rhythmic repertoire stems from the numerous cinquillo-based styles, of which there are examples also in Cuba (Makuta, Iyesá), although in Cuba, the single-bar cycles have to a greater extent evolved into two-bar patterns incorporating the clave. As long as the individual rhythmic elements come from that family, and as long as the constitutive markers are represented somewhere (like, somebody in the ensemble should be playing the darn "2+"), you are at least not going wrong.

What's also important in playing Calypso correctly, is that it has its own swing, meaning a minimal deviation from the quantified evenness of the rhythmic subdivisions. I'm talking about a micro-timing that cannot be notated, and in Calypso, it is very subtle. It isn't even as obvious as the jazz swing or the Brazilian balanço - a loose feeling coming from a homeopathic dose of triplet interpretation.


I totally agree. I also consider calypso as a feel, a spirit, rather than (or as much as) a specific rhythm. You have to "fit in it". It’s something you can also recognize in other music styles, when the band adds this calypso feel, like a "wink". The pianist Michel Camilo does it, and the bass player Richard Bona too. Which makes calypso lovers (like me) "smile in a mysterious way", or knowingly, when they "catch" that wink.


Maybe in Biguine the rules are stricter.


I do think so. And even stricter in bèlè and gwoka. They used to say in Guadeloupe that, if the drummer is not good enough, the female dancer comes to him and covers the drum with her skirt. The drummer has to work tight with the dabncers. Like the quintero in the rumba.


One last remark about Harry Belafonte vs. "the real thing": The truth is that back in the 1950's and 60's, a lot of the authentic Trini Calypso music hasn't been up to the level of U.S.-American musical craftsmanship. Correct intonation, and even rhythmical precision were rare qualities. In the U.S.A., it wouldn't have passed for acceptable music, except for a small group of folklore buffs. Same for older Haitian music or early New Orleans Jazz. The only Haitian orchestra that came close to U.S.-American standards had been the one of Issa El Saieh (where Bebo Valdés used to play the piano, at least occasionally). And what is "real"? I think that Harry Belafonte is pretty real, too - as is his music! It is what it is.


Lost of Haitian kompa bands who moved to the USA hired US horn players and arrangers. There must be a reason.


I really don't know how that connects to the martial dance of stick fighting. I did a lot of bookish studies, as opposed to travelling the world and experiencing everything first-hand. Which in this case was a necessity, because no living person can tell exactly what a Calinda (Calenda, Caringa, Carenga) looked like at the time it was forbidden. Those ancient rhythms, namely Calinda, Chica and Yuba (Djuba) remain something of a mystery yet to be solved.


Calenda is still performed nowadays. My first band, 40 years ago, played foklore (traditional dances) from Martinique and Guadeloupe, and we featured a calenda, amongst others. That’s where and how I became "initiated". But it’s not a martial dance like stick fighting. It’s a couple dance, man and woman, with steps which were considered as indecent by the settlers. Hence the forbid, though it has always been performed. In secret.
There is a a martial fighting dance in Martinique, indeed, but it’s something else, called ladja, or danmyé. This one was forbidden too, for other reasons : there could be only one winner, and the loser kept lying on the ground most of the time. It's now performed as a fokloric dance, but I saw once a guy in the audience who believed it was a real fight, and jumped on the stage to stop the fight/dance. :)


They call it siyé in Haiti. There's a Vodou rhythm named "Kongo siyé", where the segon drum applies this effect as a regular sound element.


I knew it, but forgot it. Thank you. This sound is hard to produce without wetting my finger. I know Haitian drummer can do it with dry fingers. I need to practice.


A busy YouTuber is a young man called Jeff Pierre. Although his obtrusive self-marketing goes on my nerves, he is a fantastic drummer who makes his drum talk


Yes, I know him. He's impressive, indeed.
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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:09 pm

Dear Chtimulato,

merci beaucoup for all this information about your musical roots!

You made a huge effort collecting all those listening examples, and I must confess that I listened only to one of them. I will work myself through all the material soon, because that's an integral part of your "lecture", and because music is more about listening than anything else. A strange phenomenon among professional musicians is that they are surrounded (or shall I say haunted) by such an amount of acoustic impact on a daily basis, so they sometimes value "the sound of silence" more than anything else. I pick the music that I like to listen to at a special moment very carefully, and I used to hate it when the people who hired me would send me their recordings, like: Listen to this, that's what we are going to play. So please excuse me!

The stuff that I have listened to lately has been César Franck and Lili Boulanger (something completely different). Lili Boulanger (1893-1918) was a genius. She died not even 25 years old. To me, she was one of the great French fin-de-siècle composers. She followed Debussy, but definitely made her own thing. Check her out!
César Franck (1822-1890) had started as a star organist in Belgium, but moved to Paris soon. In his music, I often hear baroque forms that he updated harmonically. He was a fantastic composer and virtuoso musician.

Thanks again,

Thomas
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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Chtimulato » Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:05 pm

I must confess that I listened only to one of them


What? Only one? Hurry up, catch it all up, there will be a short written test next week. :lol:

I used to hate it when the people [...] would send me their recordings, like: Listen to this, that's what we are going to play. So please excuse me!


Whereas I wanted to sent you a tune I recorded with my band and seek for an opinion. :lol: Verdammt!

I knew of César Franck, at least by name.I didn't know anything of Lili Boulanger, but knew her older sister Nadia Boulanger by name. She was a very famous composition teacher in France, with an awesome longevity : over 70 years! She has taught composition to many many students, amongst whom there were these guys : Aaron Copland, George Gershwin, Leonard Bernstein, Michel Legrand, Quincy Jones and Philip Glass. She's even quoted in the 1970 Love story movie : the heroine of the movie tells her lover she wants to fly to France to take some lessons with Nadia Boulanger. I discovered that in a TV documentary about her.

Stay safe, all of you.
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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:19 pm

Hi Chtimulato,

I finally managed to listen to all of your YouTube examples. I knew some of the music before; some other I would never have had an idea of, so thanks again for bringing it to my/our attention!

What you call Konpa, I had formerly taken for Cadence. In the early 1980's I was acquainted with a group of Nigerians, and they loved to dance to the Tabou Combo and called it Cadence. Later on I learned that combos incorporating wind instruments were called "Mini Jazz". Bigger Bands were called "Jazz", like the band "Super Jazz des Jeunes".

An early version of "Choucoune" is by Emy de Pradines from 1953. It's on a record entitled "Voodoo" (on the Remington label):



That woman had soul. There's another historic record with her called "Original Meringues". Her singing touches me, I don't know why.

Another musical genre from Haiti that we haven't mentioned so far is Rara, featuring the eery sound of the vaccines (vaksines). It has a close connection to vodou and is performed in the streets. The etymological association with Rada, Arara and Gaga is not coincidential.

As to the folklore of Martinique, New-Orleans-style clarinet player Thomas L'Etienne in Hamburg has a knack for the old man Stellio, and he would bring in some traditional Biguines, like "Martinique trop belle", which I had known before by Loulou Boislaville (with the Groupe Folklorique Martiniquais). I played it wrong, anyway. I first got an idea of how to accompany Biguines through the drum book by Jean-Philippe Fanfant "Afro-Caribbean Grooves for Drumset". Your example of "La grève barré moin" is also enlightening in this respect. I have a record called "Tumbélé! Biguine, afro & latin sounds from the French Caribbean, 1963-74", which is also fine (I believe).

For Mazurka, I also found this one on YouTube, where the drums are good to hear:



It sounds like a slow 3/4 with double-time feel to me. At first it was hard to indentify the meter in order to understand the phrasing.

The Biguine wabap has some nice piano guajeo playing, while I can't hear any "jazz" in it.

The percussion that goes along with the Quadrille examples, is pretty interesting. There's the tambourin that sounds like timpani sometimes, maracas (cha-cha?), and a triangle that reminds me of Brazilian Forrô, rhythmically. And what is this huge reco-reco called? That's a strange playing technique on it. And what language is that, kreyól?

I had known about Nadia Boulanger before I heard of her sister Lili, too. Nadia was quite a personality, and a super-demanding and severe teacher. Her judgements on composers were discriminating and at times merciless, and that included herself. She always esteemed her younger sister incomparably higher than herself, and she took care of her until her death. She led and taught at the Conservatoire Américaine in Fontainebleau. By the way, she did not accept Gershwin, because she said that he was already "there". There's a fine documentary on Nadia Boulanger on Youtube:



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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Chtimulato » Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:41 pm

What you call Konpa, I had formerly taken for Cadence. In the early 1980's I was acquainted with a group of Nigerians, and they loved to dance to the Tabou Combo and called it Cadence. Later on I learned that combos incorporating wind instruments were called "Mini Jazz". Bigger Bands were called "Jazz", like the band "Super Jazz des Jeunes".


Kompa is the "heir", the successor of kadans. I also compare it to a steam roller which can crush all other music genres in a party...
And yes, Haitians sometimes refer to kompa as « jazz », it can also be heard in the song themselves : « balancé jazz la » (« swing that jazz ») for instance.


An early version of "Choucoune" is by Emy de Pradines from 1953.


Did you notice the rhythm sounds rather tricky and hard to follow/play along on this version? :wink:


That woman had soul. […] Her singing touches me, I don't know why.


Yes, indeed.


Another musical genre from Haiti that we haven't mentioned so far is Rara, featuring the eery sound of the vaccines (vaksines). It has a close connection to vodou and is performed in the streets. The etymological association with Rada, Arara and Gaga is not coincidential.


Rara, Rada (Vodú rhythm family) and Arará derive from Allada/Arada, a Beninese town. From what I’ve read.
I’ve seen some Haitian people playing it at a carnival in Martinique. They were awesome. They blew in the vaccines (the bamboo trunk), with sometimes a fummel at the other end, while often beating the rhythm with a stick on the bamboo.
Here’s one :



I believe it’s also close to raborday / rabordaille. The only examples I could find sound a little bit too much "juvenile" to my ears. They have nothing to envy from rap or raggamuffin... :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLU76jUxwxgRjI07PmrdtG7CfDiPWl_EJw


As to the folklore of Martinique, New-Orleans-style clarinet player Thomas L'Etienne in Hamburg has a knack for the old man Stellio, and he would bring in some traditional Biguines, like "Martinique trop belle", which I had known before by Loulou Boislaville (with the Groupe Folklorique Martiniquais). I played it wrong, anyway. I first got an idea of how to accompany Biguines through the drum book by Jean-Philippe Fanfant "Afro-Caribbean Grooves for Drumset".


You know Stellio, Loulou Boislaville and Jean-Philippe Fanfant? Hats off! :)
Thierry Fanfant, brother of the last one, is a great bass player. Both of them are playing at the same time on on the caribbean music scene and as sidemen for famous entertainment singers.

Here are 2 songs by Stellio :



(the rhythm is tricky to play along…) :)



Bonus track with Thierry Fanfant (bass and guitar) :




For Mazurka, I also found this one on YouTube, where the drums are good to hear:


I’ve got this LP of Hurard Coppet BTW.
Did you notice the "stop" on beat 2 at the end of every verse? :) It’s usually clearer to check out, because the musicians and dancers make a pause on beat 3. Here, you have to guess it, or to know the song…
Here’s an exemple :




It sounds like a slow 3/4 with double-time feel to me. At first it was hard to indentify the meter in order to understand the phrasing.


It’s a 3/4, indeed.


The Biguine wabap has some nice piano guajeo playing, while I can't hear any "jazz" in it.


It depends on the arrangements and the used instruments. It has become more jazzy nowadays (not necessaraily with extended chords, but with the improvisation parts)


The percussion that goes along with the Quadrille examples, is pretty interesting. There's the tambourin that sounds like timpani sometimes, maracas (cha-cha?), and a triangle that reminds me of Brazilian Forrô, rhythmically.


Yes, the groove suggested by the accordion, chacha (shaker) and triangle can be redoubtable. I believe this tambourin is called « tambour di bas » (some exegetes claim it comes from « tambour de Basque » (kind of tambourin), others state it comes from « tambour de basse » (bass drum). And yes, it sometimes sounds close to some Brasilian rhythms.


And what is this huge reco-reco called? That's a strange playing technique on it.


It’s called siyac or tiyac. It’s the 1st time I see such a big one. The ones I know are smaller and the players stick it between their belly and the wall, or a tree.


And what language is that, kreyól?


Yes. Spoken in Martinique, Guadeloupe, French Guyana, Haiti, Dominica, and Saint Lucia.
And, geographically at the opposite, in the Réunion and the Seychelles.
With differences, of course. It’s like the Plattdeutsch spoken in Hamburg in comparison to the one spoken in Kiel : people can understand each other… or not... :)


I save the documentary about Nadia Boulanger for a rainy day... :)
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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:20 pm

Hi Chtimulato & group,

Chtimulato wrote:
An early version of "Choucoune" is by Emy de Pradines from 1953.


Did you notice the rhythm sounds rather tricky and hard to follow/play along on this version?


Yes. I wouldn't even try to catch a groove there. It sounds as if percussionists were called into the studio to play along with the lead of the song, which never works, because it is like building a house from the roof downwards. But you know what? I like it anyway, because obviously human beings are listening to each other, trying to collaborate. In the age of music programming, something like this is rather precious.

Contrary to this example, your clip with Thierry Fanfant is really tight. The rhythm is so laid back, it makes you feel that life is basically easy (even if it's not). Whereas Cuban music is generally played on top of the beat.

Chtimulato wrote:
Another musical genre from Haiti that we haven't mentioned so far is Rara, featuring the eery sound of the vaccines (vaksines). It has a close connection to vodou and is performed in the streets. The etymological association with Rada, Arara and Gaga is not coincidential.


Rara, Rada (Vodú rhythm family) and Arará derive from Allada/Arada, a Beninese town. From what I’ve read.


Yes. John Santos told us the same. It was formerly the kingdom of Dahomey.

Chtimulato wrote:I believe it’s also close to raborday / rabordaille. The only examples I could find sound a little bit too much "juvenile" to my ears. They have nothing to envy from rap or raggamuffin...


What kind of rhythm or dance is that? I read about it in the context of vodou drumming. But isn't it more a secular affair?

Chtimulato wrote:
For Mazurka, I also found this one on YouTube, where the drums are good to hear:


Did you notice the "stop" on beat 2 at the end of every verse? It’s usually clearer to check out, because the musicians and dancers make a pause on beat 3.


That's interesting. It is probably based on the dancing. The name Mazurka comes from Masuria, a landscape in Poland. (Same with "Polonaise", "the Polish".)

Chtimulato wrote:I believe this tambourin is called « tambour di bas » (some exegetes claim it comes from « tambour de Basque » (kind of tambourin), others state it comes from « tambour de basse » (bass drum).


Yes, I've read the same. They sometimes use it in vodou music, too.

As this is a conga drum forum, I would like to introduce a drummer called Peanuts Taylor from the Bahamas. Even though Cuba is the homeland of the conga drum, there are other traditions that use the conga in their own way, for their own music. We've heard already one example in the quadrille-jazz fusion by Fal Frett from Martinique.


(drumming starts at about 03:14)

Greetings,
Thomas
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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Chtimulato » Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:13 pm

I like it anyway, because obviously human beings are listening to each other, trying to collaborate. In the age of music programming, something like this is rather precious.


Yes, of course. But it’s possible to play along nevertheless, one just needs to pay attention.


The rhythm is so laid back, it makes you feel that life is basically easy (even if it's not).


That’s the trademark of this music. :)


Yes. John Santos told us the same.


John Santos! Hats off once again.


What kind of rhythm or dance is that? I read about it in the context of vodou drumming. But isn't it more a secular affair?


That’s how I understand it : Rada is religious (mostly 12/8 rhythms I believe, but I have to check this) and Rara/Rabordaille (Rabòday) are secular, and apparently mostly 4/4. Rara could be a Carnival or festive rhythm, but, there again, I need to check this and search a little.


That's interesting. It is probably based on the dancing. The name Mazurka comes from Masuria, a landscape in Poland. (Same with "Polonaise", "the Polish".)


I knew the obvious Polish origin, and the name Mazuria, but not the connection.


Yes, I've read the same. They sometimes use it in vodou music, too.


Yes, I’ve seen that too.


As this is a conga drum forum, I would like to introduce a drummer called Peanuts Taylor from the Bahamas.


I knew this video. Thanks anyway.


Even though Cuba is the homeland of the conga drum, there are other traditions that use the conga in their own way, for their own music. We've heard already one example in the quadrille-jazz fusion by Fal Frett from Martinique.


Yes, congas have become versatile. It’s easier to find and carry congas than "specific" drums (abakuá, gaga, palo, cumbia, etc.)
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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Greensail » Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:45 am

Thomas, Chtimulato, was out a couple days, just took a look and find I have more homework to do. Just want to say I have enjoyed this thread and especially listening to the links you provided as well as numerous related that come up after. Expanding my horizons is so enjoyable. Thank you both.
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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Thomas Altmann » Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:11 pm

Hi Chtimulato & group,

Chtimulato wrote:But it’s possible to play along nevertheless, one just needs to pay attention.


I once had a studio gig (not very professional, obviously), where a duo had produced some tracks and eventually got the idea that some percussion might fit well. Of course, the time wasn't exactly perfect. So I had to play on top of the beat to give the impression that they were hanging in my rhythm, and try to find a middle path that would still make all of their irregularities sound good - without letting my part waver audibly, at least not for the average listener. I made that somehow, but it could never have become perfect.

John Santos! Hats off once again.


John made a few workshop tours across Europe from end of the 1980's through the 90's. I attended like 4 of them, and even had one or two private lessons with him. I can proudly say he was one of my teachers. I think he is probably one of the best percussion teachers I could have had. I modified some of his material later, but I do the same with everything I ever learned and practiced, and he probably does the same, as everybody, I think. (What and how I taught twenty years ago is not the same that I am teaching today, and if I should still be alive twenty years from now, I will teach differently from now - I hope!) John contextualizes everything he teaches, and he knows how to explain the how and why. And he doesn't try to pretend that he is omniscient - a wonderful virtue among Latin percussion teachers. Even though I had been to Havana years before and had a private two-day lesson course with Changuito in Hamburg, it was him who laid the foundation for almost everything I do. Plus, he is such a nice and humorous person! We often hung out for a meal or a drink after the clinics. In later years, he and I even met privately for a walk or so and talked about life and music, and it wasn't easy for me to forget about his musical authority for a while. I heard him play bongos, congas and timbales, and even played some batá with him. (His specialty is the chékere!) Whatever he did, and no matter with whom, he always sounded great, warm, strong - and made the others sound great, too! There are not too many people on this planet that I would praise like this, and I can only recommend to any percussion student to ask him for a lesson (or two) ...

I knew this video. Thanks anyway.


I hadn't heard about Peanuts Taylor until a few months ago. I was also thinking of other forum members who might be following this thread. And, by the way, there are more and better clips with him. There's also another great solo of Jeff Pierre on YouTube, but I couldn't find it anymore. But now people can go on doing their own research.

@Greensail: You are very welcome, as always. We are lucky to have expert insiders like Chtimulato on board. It's been a lesson for me as well.

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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Chtimulato » Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:12 pm

I once had a studio gig (not very professional, obviously), where a duo had produced some tracks and eventually got the idea that some percussion might fit well. Of course, the time wasn't exactly perfect. So I had to play on top of the beat to give the impression that they were hanging in my rhythm, and try to find a middle path that would still make all of their irregularities sound good - without letting my part waver audibly, at least not for the average listener. I made that somehow, but it could never have become perfect.


Yes, it can be quite challenging. This also often happens to piano and guitar players who have to accompany singers who sing in an approximative tonality... And if you play with other accompanists, you have to avoid looking and smiling at the others... :)


And he doesn't try to pretend that he is omniscient - a wonderful virtue among Latin percussion teachers.


Oooooooooh yes.


Whatever he did, and no matter with whom, he always sounded great, warm, strong - and made the others sound great, too! There are not too many people on this planet that I would praise like this, and I can only recommend to any percussion student to ask him for a lesson (or two) …


It’s characteristic of great teachers / masters. Lali (Raúl de la Caridad Gonzáles Brito) was like that too. I experienced it personally, and heard it from other people too. You could begin a lesson with him without any knowledge or technique and no clue of what you were about to learn, and learn something you were proud to play then. And discover that you were part of the game, and the part you were playing was needed by the rest of the band. As much you needed what the others played too. A lady I know told me he gave her a lesson with other people at his house once, and that, without noticing it, she could play a rumba on 4 or 5 drums at the end of the lesson, one or two hours later. It doesn’t prevent from practice and learning, of course, but it makes you learn in a pleasant way, because you don’t even notice you’re learning something.


We are lucky to have expert insiders like Chtimulato on board. It's been a lesson for me as well.


I’m not an expert, guys. I just talk about about stuff I know. When I don’t know, I confess I have no clue, and/or I shut up : no one hears nor reads me. :)
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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Greensail » Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:11 pm

Just thought I'd share the joy this thread has brought. The discovery of the various genres and especially for me, the "grooves" they provide. While I cannot say I've been able incorporate them into my conga playing as of yet but - gettingthere. Chtimulato warned us about the likely addiction to Kompa. You were correct and I have been rather consumed by the style. (Thank God I have a tolerant spouse who rolls her eyes and moves to another room.) Nothwithstanding, thank you. Soon to be back in the islands
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Re: New to congas, interest in Afro-Latin and Caribbean styl

Postby Chtimulato » Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:18 pm

Chtimulato warned us about the likely addiction to Kompa. You were correct and I have been rather consumed by the style.


:D :lol:
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