Standard ("6/8") Bell Pattern - analysis of bell patterns

[zaragemca]

It is not the point of me speaking broken english,it is that those terms were used at different time with a little different meaning,and I understand what he is trying me to convey to him,,,,so I did it, with a historic background.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1142993123

[davidpenalosa]

I actually do not speak Spanish, despite the few words I wrote in a previous post. My miniscule knowledge of Spanish is not even worthy of being called "broken".

However, I do own the Harvard Dictionary of Music and The Oxford Dictionary of Music and those terms you used Zaragemca are not in them. I suggest that in the future, we use the most correct terms available. I'm happy to help out by referring to my dictionaries.

from The New Harvard Dictionary of Music:
"BACKBEAT: In rock and related genres, a sharp attack on beats two and four of a 4/4 measure, often sounded continuously on the snare drum."

Always happy to set the record straight and clear up misconceptions. :;):
-David

[zaragemca]

That is what I already told you David,and remember that term might be of use only in here in other countries they could use a different word,and their have their dictionary also,(one example is,(Snare,Caja,Tarola,Redoblante),which mean the same thing in different countries.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1143048904

[pavloconga]

That is what I already told you David,and remember that term might be of use only in here in other countries they could use a different word,and their have their dictionary also,(one example is,(Snare,Caja,Tarola,Redoblante),which mean the same thing in different countries.Dr. Zaragemca

Greetings David, Dr Z and all,
I have been following this thread with much interest.

I have to agree with Dr Z on this one.

Allow me to relate a short story:

In March/April 2000 I travelled around Australia with a group of 16 master percussionists and dancers from 'The Kusun Ensemble' of Ghana, West Africa, on their first Australian performance tour.

While in Melbourne (Australia's 2nd largest city), they conducted masterclasses in percussion for music students at one of the cities' educational institutions. At the time, it was, for most of the Ghanaians, their first experience of the western world.

After demonstrating one of their amazing percussion pieces (it was a fairly complex rhythm in 12/8). Some of the students began to ask questions about the rhythm, talking in fairly daunting musical terminology. Of course, someone asked, "Where is the 'one'?" and someone else asked something like, "Are you starting this part on the 'and of 2?' etc. I can't remember the exact reply, but there were blank faces and scratching of heads all around. They were really talking different languages!

What the students were asking did not make sense at all to the Ghanaians because they understand their rhythms in a different way.

Their way was not about a reference to 'the one', or referring to western musical terms from a dictionary. Of course, in the end, they demonstrated their deep and thorough knowledge to the students by simply playing the rhythm and explaining how things fit together.

They also demonstrated that they could start the rhythm from anywhere within the bell cycle, from any note of the bell and instantly know where the corresponding drum parts commenced. They understood the entire rhythm in a wholistic sense, always knowing exactly where they were without having to count.

It is my belief that to truly reach a deeper understanding of these African and Afro Cuban musical forms one must sometimes put aside one's world and cultural view (e.g. a western/English based lexicon of musical terms) and attempt to reach a greater knowledge of these rhythmic forms by stepping outside of our familiar territory. That is - understanding the music in the way it is taught in its cultural context. This might mean different things for different people.

Is musical terminology useful? Of course it is (and I use it myself). But I think something is often lost in the translation - the real knowing is in the playing.

Anyway that's my 2 cents worth...

best regards
Pavlo

kusun ensemble on-line video of perfomance from USA tour:

http://www.kennedy-center.org/program....UNENSEM

ps Maybe online voice/video chats would be useful on this forum? A friend of mine was talking on my computer to his girlfriend in Switzerland last night for free through a program called 'Skype' (FREE international phone calls). Through the computer speakers she sounded like she was in the same room!



Edited By pavloconga on 1143374148

[zaragemca]

Welcome Pavloconga,the test/fire of my understanding of the structured vocalization of West/African percussion already happened to me a few years ago,when two top percussionists from Guinea were invited to my drum/circle,(one, on Djembe,and another one on Djun/Djun,with their African/customes)...the Coffee/Shop where this was taken place was packed,)from the front to the back),all my best percussion students were there,(it was kind of a challenge becouse I was teaching Djembe,Darbuka,Ashikko,Tama,Doumbeck,etc., beside the Afrocuban Percussion Instruments)...Since they were from Guinea I knew that the root/pattern was Arara/Ewe,and to the emasing and thrilled of everybody there,(including my students),there was not conversation of, we are going to do this,or that..As I learned with my ancestors the Djun/Djun would make the calls,(this was the crucial moment in my percussion/live to find out if my ancestors were right,or wrong)...The Djun/Djun made the call and we,(the Guinea Djembe/player and me), started voicing each other,(15 minutes of fire),by the end of the first song,it looks like the walls of the place were going to fall, becouse the crowd screaming and applausses,then the Djun/Djun player made a second call,(change of the patterns),it was a worrior/call...(another 15 minutes of fire),...and later a dacing call,(with the corresponding 15-7 more minutes)..Three songs was enough for them to recognize who I was in Djembe/Playing...There is not need for me to tell any of you what people would say about me when they observed me playing with this african/percussionists without talking a single word...We did all the talking,(I find out they were living in Canada and belong to a Folkloric Group from Guinea),after the percussion/fight...I couldn't take the credit,my ancestors took it long time ago.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1143499823

[davidpenalosa]

Is musical terminology useful? Of course it is (and I use it myself). But I think something is often lost in the translation - the real knowing is in the playing.

Hi Pavlo,
I think it's funny that a music theory or music terminology thread inevitably includes a post by someone who says something to the effect that "it's about PLAYING music, not talking about music". While I agree that it's about playing the music, we are gathered here in this forum to TALK about music. I don't yet have the technology to play music with anyone on-line.

I can dig it though; there's a point where each of us have had too much music theory for a day. Theory in regards to the aural tradition of Afro-based percussion is an especially complicated justaposition. That's a whole other issue that you've introduced, which I would enjoy getting into.

Many African, Cuban, Brazilian, etc drummers don't concieve of the music in terms of a counted beat cycle. They don't objectify the music. Many African cultures don't even have a name for rhythm. The music and dance represent their world view. I've met some accomplished African drummers who can't play a part they are showing until they hear its more fundamental accompaning part. In other words, they can't percieve of the part out of context.

However, if I remember correctly, it was Zaragemca who introduced the terminology in question. If we are going to use terminology and abstract theory here, I will encourage those participating to use as correct and precise terminology as possible. That way, there will be as little that's lost in the translation as possible.
-David

[zaragemca]

It is true brother David, that I did introduce the terminology,but again,isn't incorrect,neither abstract,even if you didn't have familiarity with the word,...usuly when somebody point out to me misunderstanding,I just frame it,or try to convey the subject in a different way instead of getting into Semantics, since each country have its own.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1143655136

[davidpenalosa]

Zaragemca,
It's not a matter of "semantics"", but a matter of correct English, or to be more precise; a matter of correct music terminology. If the term in question is not in the music dictionary, I will suggest using a term that is. If we ever speak Spanish together, feel free to correct me.

I came up using many musical terms incorrectly. Now I spend hours on-line boring people with these technicalities. I'm not singling you out in particluar. I tend to correct misuse of terms in any thread I'm participating in. It's what I do :O
-David

[zaragemca]

Welcome brother David,there isn't such thing as incorrect word in here,may be you are ignoring the genesis of vocabulary...The vocabulary start when a group of people use words to convey meaning of things,(that is anywhere in the world),then the universities,or linguistic groups start,compiling those word,and putting them toguether for the purpose of, if somebody get to face these word,(by reading,conversation,etc.),they could have a refference of the meaning,....many times they compile differents word, meaning the same and it becomes,(sinonimos),which they also set it up as same meaning,(that's happened everywhere in the world), that's how the vocabularies are set up,and the purpose of it is only to have reference of meaning,isn't the purpose of it to restrict anybody vocabulary,and as matter of facts, there are incorporation of new words,and meaning all the time in all dictionaries of the world...Only if you don't WRITE,or,SPELLS properly a recognized word, it could be called incorrect.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1143656606

[davidpenalosa]

...there isn't such thing as incorrect word in here,
... the purpose of it is only to have reference of meaning,isn't the purpose of it to restrict anybody vocabulary,and as matter of facts, there are incorporation of new words,and meaning all the time in all dictionaries of the world...

Zaragemca,
For someone who sees himself as one who "sets the record straight", you have a hard time accepting being corrected yourself. I will continue to correct misuse of music vocabulary and you can continue to disagree with me. My intention is not to restrict you or anybody, but to strive for clarity. I think you could benifit from owning an English music dictionary. You might even enjoy using it. I'm sure we will return to this topic in the future.
-David

[zaragemca]

You are absolutely right when saying,"set the record straight",..but I only do that when there are historic,misinformation,or,misconception of facts,I have never use it for vocabulary purposes.Dr. zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

Right. That's my "job"
-

[Berimbau]

Might I suggest the Harvard Dictionary of Music? Or even the New Webster's College Dictionary of English.



Saludos,



Berimbau