What to play with Jazz standards?

[JohnnyConga]

Guys do your homework first before we discuss musical history and you will find that Irakere was MORE instrumental, than Jerry was, Jerry didn't even have a band yet when Irakere was out...Jerry at this time was playing with Orch Libre and Eddie Palmieri...Im' from New York..If you didn't grow and live there you cannot tell me about who was more instrumental musically, at this time....because you heard of Jerry before u heard of Irakere, doesn't mean Jerry wasn't influenced, by them as well....Jerry has always been influenced by Cuban music and Miles Davis....punto final....I have known Jerry since he was 16 years old...so who can tell me about him??...and I do consider myself a "music historian" to some degree, as i go into my 42 year as a musician, and have worked with people like Charlie Palmieri, Dave Valentin, Johnny Pacheco and over 100 other artists...so if you want to argue with me about NY music history, let's do it!...."JC" Johnny Conga.....ps congamyk you make me laugh.. ..once again what is "modern" to you?...

[pcastag]

What era is modern?..the one u live in today?. or the one yesterday? ...Ever hear "Sabu" Martinez Jazz Espagnole, album from 1963?....if it was played today it would sound "modern"...and i have many many albums that sound just as modern today, as well as my own CD Johnny Conga & Caribe recorded in the early 90's.....I'm not taking anything away from my 'homey' Jerry me and him go waaaaaaay back,. to the time when he couldn't play squat.....don't get me started on the bossa nova issue either......I will tell u this if u ask a Brasilian what is Bossa Nova he will tell u "I don't know"....they never listened to it in Brasil only here in the USA....I am also an X member of Sergio Mendes and Brasil 77 so if there is anything u want to know about Brasilian music besides Jobim, Sergio had a lot to do with it to. As much as i hate to give him credit for anything.....BEFORE JERRY there was IRAKERE!.....where do u think he got his ideas from besides playing like Miles Davis....or haven't u noticed?...."JC" Johnny Conga....

What? Brazilians never listened to Bossa? Please, how do you account for the popularity of Elis Regina? I'm not saying it was the most popular music in Brazil, but there definitely were many artists in Brazil who recorded bossa for their brazilian audiences, and performed plenty in Brazil.
PC

[pcastag]

BTW, for a little research based facts, according to wikipedia Irakere formed in '73, Jerry released his first album as bandleader in '79 ( ya yo me cure). Wikipedia also states that irakere released their first recording in '79, Chekere Son, but who knows if that info is correct.
PC

[pcastag]

If you want to check put some cool modern afro-cuban jazz, check out Tony Martinez and Cuban power, he's got anga on congas and raul pineda on bateria, excellent phenominal recordings, funk, folkloric all kinds of stuff mixed up in there.
PC
PS you can download his stuff on e-music, really cheap it's like 10.00 for 40 tunes. I got a ton of really good latin jazz and folkloric stuff off of there, irakere, jerry gonzales, john santos, bobby matos, tons of mongo tania maria, all the rumba groups ( yoruba andabo, munequitos, los papines, etc. ) bata ,you name it!
pc

[OLSONGO]

Bros you are all forgetting a couple of latin musicians, who have contributed with their 2 cents to Jazz, one of them is Gato Barbieri , I can trully say that this cat brought all of the condimentos or spices that latinamerica has to offer, from his homeland Tango, to the Samba, Andean folklore and Afrocuban; glad to say that i had the opportunity to gig with such a sax virtuoso. Something to listen to 1972 creation " Last Tango in Paris"nice 6/8 s , not a bad flik either. Also his rendition of Europa a composition by Santana is the most played bolero on the airwaves ever .
And the other is Carlos Santana have you ever listened to also a 1972 creation Santana Caravanseri ? personally his best album and does it have a lot of Jazz influnce in it( I had just arrived to America, was in junior high and got it on those 10 for a penny deals, changed my whole world ) And yes there is Irakere , but lets not forget Afrocuba with perhaps the best horn section I have ever heard.
And where does Chano Pozo fit ??? je je.

Paz Olsongo.

[congamyk]

I would like to ask, where does Mongo's or Mongo's/Cal Tjader's recording of Afro Blue fit in this picture? Also what bands were influenced by Fort Apache, and what bands may have been influenced by Irakere. could their have been a dual development in different directions?

Afro Blue... well 99% of most jazz musicians don't even know Mongo wrote or played it. They heard John Coltrane cover it and think it's his tune. That's why Afro-Blue has become a jazz standard - Coltrane. This is my whole point in this discussion. What bands and which Latin musicians influenced mainstream jazz. Mongo's conga technique obviously influenced modern conga playing so that affected mainstrem jazz and his Afro Blue composition was covered by Coltrane which in turn made it a standard so that was some influence but that's it. That's the extent of Mongo's influence on modern jazz.

I'm speculating if Americans were influenced more by Fort Apache and Latin musicians more by Irakere. What do you think guys. BTW enjoying this discussion.

Jerry Gonzales and Fort Apache were instrumental in influencing modern jazz because Jerry Gonzales and Fort Apache can swing as good as any pure jazz swing band. They were the first Latin Band that could play ALL styles of mainstream jazz, not just Latin style only. This is why they were so influencial, the mainstream jazz audience bought their records because they had standard swing and modern jazz song styles on their albums, as well as Latin arrangements. This is what set them apart, they played authentic Latin style and could swing hard with any other pure jazz band. The other Latin groups at the time ONLY played Latin styles and didn't play any swing. Thus they didn't have a following among 99% of the jazz audience and jazz musicians. Fort Apache changed everything because they could actually interpret and play Monk and Miles Davis tunes in an authentic jazz way that forced the jazz world to listen. Irakere didn't do that, Irakere was a pure Latin band exclusively.

BTW, for a little research based facts, according to wikipedia Irakere formed in '73, Jerry released his first album as bandleader in '79 ( ya yo me cure). Wikipedia also states that irakere released their first recording in '79, Chekere Son, but who knows if that info is correct. PC

When albums were first released or "who's better" or even who was more influencial on NY Latin musicians is not part of my discussion. How Latin music influenced mainstream jazz is my discussion.

Chucho Valdez and Anga's solo careers have gained a decent following among jazz musicians of late but Irakere is still a relative unknown in the jazz purist world. 99% of jazz musicians and listeners know more about Poncho Sanchez and The Cuban All-Stars than they do Irakere.

Bossa nova... I could list hundreds of Brazilian musicians known worldwide for their bossa nova sound that made them famous in Brazil before being known internationally. I'll only list a few because it's too easy. These artits have sold millions upon millions of records and influenced mainstream American jazz.

Sergio Mendez
Antonio Carlos Jobim
Elis Regina
Airto
Flora Purim
Paula Morelenbaum
Bebel Gilberto
Oscar Castro-Neves
Milton Nascimento
Celso Machado
Astrud Gilberto
Eliane Elias
Joao Gilberto
Luiz Bonfa
Baden Powell
Gilberto Gil
Bola Sete



Edited By congamyk on 1185125387

[congamyk]

Bros you are all forgetting a couple of latin musicians, who have contributed with their 2 cents to Jazz, one of them is Gato Barbieri , I can trully say that this cat brought all of the condimentos or spices that latinamerica has to offer, from his homeland Tango, to the Samba, Andean folklore and Afrocuban; glad to say that i had the opportunity to gig with such a sax virtuoso. Something to listen to 1972 creation " Last Tango in Paris"nice 6/8 s , not a bad flik either. Also his rendition of Europa a composition by Santana is the most played bolero on the airwaves ever .
And the other is Carlos Santana have you ever listened to also a 1972 creation Santana Caravanseri ? personally his best album and does it have a lot of Jazz influnce in it( I had just arrived to America, was in junior high and got it on those 10 for a penny deals, changed my whole world ) And yes there is Irakere , but lets not forget Afrocuba with perhaps the best horn section I have ever heard.
And where does Chano Pozo fit ??? je je.

Paz Olsongo.

Yeah, I love Gato and would have to include him as a great artist that had much influence on American jazz. He was there early on and had a tremendous following among jazz listeners.

Carlos Santana..... No.
Carlos should stick with pop and keep recruiting bubble gum singers to further his career. IMO he hasn't done anything original in decades and has continually diminished the authentic Latin influnce in his music. He's allowed the idiot producers to diminish the conga and timbale volume and push those instruments further away from the sound.



Edited By congamyk on 1185125242

[pcastag]

Congamyk, first of all this is not YOUR discussion, second of all I was not replying to you directly, merely making a statement since JC wanted us to back some stuff up. Your statements about influences are purely subjective, and have absolutely no basis in fact. Did you interview thousands of musicians to find out whether or not they were more influenced by Jerry gonzales or Irakere? Or if they heard coltraine play afro blue before Mongo? Obvusly Coltraine heard it, and if he did I'm sure many other prominent players did as well. The fact that Coltraine chose to record it shows how much influence Mongo has, whether directly ot indirectly. I've heard that Arturo Sandoval and Paquito and chucho as well can play some mean straight ahead. Anyways, maybe YOU were more influenced by the apache band, but your statements about who had more impact are totally subjective,. PS I'd like to see that list of "HUNDREDS" of brazilian musicians or artists.
PC

[congamyk]

Congamyk, first of all this is not YOUR discussion, second of all I was not replying to you directly, merely making a statement since JC wanted us to back some stuff up. Your statements about influences are purely subjective, and have absolutely no basis in fact. Did you interview thousands of musicians to find out whether or not they were more influenced by Jerry gonzales or Irakere? Or if they heard coltraine play afro blue before Mongo? Obvusly Coltraine heard it, and if he did I'm sure many other prominent players did as well. The fact that Coltraine chose to record it shows how much influence Mongo has, whether directly ot indirectly. I've heard that Arturo Sandoval and Paquito and chucho as well can play some mean straight ahead. Anyways, maybe YOU were more influenced by the apache band, but your statements about who had more impact are totally subjective,. PS I'd like to see that list of "HUNDREDS" of brazilian musicians or artists.
PC

PC you are way off in your last post. You always try to make things personal with me whenever possible.

My posts ARE MY discussion. If someone is going to quote me and critique it, they need to keep it in its context. To again clear things up for you, my discussion here is mainstream jazz and the Latin groups that influenced it.

I have been studying and listening to mainstream jazz over the last few decades. I don't have to interview thousands of jazz musicians. It was my experience from talking to the musicians I knew that Jerry Gonzales and Fort Apache were talked about constantly and they were on the JAZZ charts, they were being played on all of the JAZZ stations, they were on BET Jazz TV, etc. I could go on and on but my point is they were out front and very influencial on mainstream jazz. And Jerry was the first modern jazz conguero band leader. How much more do you want to argue with that? All this while Irakere wasn't being played on ANY jazz stations around the country or on national American TV. Only a blind person would have to argue with that. You call it subjective that my MAIN POINT is that Fort Apache could play straight-ahead jazz style and THIS is what made them influential in the jazz world. You totally ignore the main point.

All evidence can be considered subjective. For instance you state that Irakere released albums before Fort Apache... what relevance does that have on which influenced mainstream jazz more? Zero.

And Coltrane covered hundreds of composers, he covered Mongo tune, so what? Again that proves nothing about Mongo except Coltrane covered ONE of his tunes.

As for the hundreds of Brazilian ...what difference does that make? Were you disagreeing with the list I gave or do you just like to argue? My statements and list are correct.



Edited By congamyk on 1185131311

[burke]

Wow!

The forum is becoming better than "Idol" or "Big Brother"

Maybe we should call it: crankypantscongaplace.com

Darrell

[yambu321]

:cool:



Edited By yambu321 on 1196047320

[pcastag]

Congamyk, first of all this is not YOUR discussion, second of all I was not replying to you directly, merely making a statement since JC wanted us to back some stuff up. Your statements about influences are purely subjective, and have absolutely no basis in fact. Did you interview thousands of musicians to find out whether or not they were more influenced by Jerry gonzales or Irakere? Or if they heard coltraine play afro blue before Mongo? Obvusly Coltraine heard it, and if he did I'm sure many other prominent players did as well. The fact that Coltraine chose to record it shows how much influence Mongo has, whether directly ot indirectly. I've heard that Arturo Sandoval and Paquito and chucho as well can play some mean straight ahead. Anyways, maybe YOU were more influenced by the apache band, but your statements about who had more impact are totally subjective,. PS I'd like to see that list of "HUNDREDS" of brazilian musicians or artists.
PC

PC you are way off in your last post. You always try to make things personal with me whenever possible.

My posts ARE MY discussion. If someone is going to quote me and critique it, they need to keep it in its context. To again clear things up for you, my discussion here is mainstream jazz and the Latin groups that influenced it.

I have been studying and listening to mainstream jazz over the last few decades. I don't have to interview thousands of jazz musicians. It was my experience from talking to the musicians I knew that Jerry Gonzales and Fort Apache were talked about constantly and they were on the JAZZ charts, they were being played on all of the JAZZ stations, they were on BET Jazz TV, etc. I could go on and on but my point is they were out front and very influencial on mainstream jazz. And Jerry was the first modern jazz conguero band leader. How much more do you want to argue with that? All this while Irakere wasn't being played on ANY jazz stations around the country or on national American TV. Only a blind person would have to argue with that. You call it subjective that my MAIN POINT is that Fort Apache could play straight-ahead jazz style and THIS is what made them influential in the jazz world. You totally ignore the main point.

All evidence can be considered subjective. For instance you state that Irakere released albums before Fort Apache... what relevance does that have on which influenced mainstream jazz more? Zero.

And Coltrane covered hundreds of composers, he covered Mongo tune, so what? Again that proves nothing about Mongo except Coltrane covered ONE of his tunes.

As for the hundreds of Brazilian ...what difference does that make? Were you disagreeing with the list I gave or do you just like to argue? My statements and list are correct.

Dude, you are lost. I never said Irakere released recordings before Jerry Gonzales did. In fact I said that their first recording was 79,(according to wkipedia) and so was jerry's.What I did say was that the group formed in 1973, which is when Jerry was still playing in other people's groups, just like JC said. Second of all, your post is not your discussion, a discussion involves more than one person, therefore I was correct in saying that this is not YOUR discussion. You can say, "my point" , "my opinion", "my idea" "my comments" etc. Third, I don't recall ever having directly responded to you about anything, so I really don't know what you're talking about when you say I always make things with you personal. Fourth, your list looks fine, but those are all well known artists, you said you could list hundreds, which I would be interested in seeing. Fifth, I'm glad that you have been listening to jazz, for decades, but that hardly makes you an authority on the subject does it? Sixth, I never even mentioned you, you chose to pull out my post with some dates and start hacking on it. Whatever dude!
PC

[JohnnyConga]

Well I'm almost done with this conversation ,,, cause it seems you guys like "making up musical history" rather than chek the facts as they are...congamyk u still haven;t answered my question what is modern to you?.....and once again Brasilians "know of" bossa nova but it was "more famous" here in the states than Brasil...is what i meant to say....so I correct myself...cause I can... and if you want to talk about musical influences let's bring in Eddie Palmieri, who Jerry played with and was very much influenced by .... So congamyk tell me more about the music scene in NYC being your from Kansas, mind you the scene Im talking about was before u picked up an instrument, which u can't really talk about anyway....and I dont care how many books u have read....peace..."JC" Johnny Conga.... PS Jerry WAS NOT the First Modern Conguero, man where do u get this stuff??....

[JohnnyConga]

PS IRAKERE EXPLODED ON THE INTERNATIONAL SCENE IN 1976 AND WON THE GRAMMY IN 1978.. Remember there is an Embargo and we could not HEAR Cuban music on radio here in the States....so there was none being played....except for guys like me and maybe 5 other DJ's in the whole country that had "recent" Cuban recordings....so I also credit Chucho Valdes in "influencing" Jerry ....and if you want to talk "modern" conguero I give that credit to the late great "El Nino" (cinco tumbadoras) from Irakere, cause Anga and other were influenced by him......ok now that is HISTORY!...each generation has it's own so called "modern" conguero....."JC" Johnny Conga...

[pcastag]

UHHH, I take offense at the you guys statement. I haven't made any statements that I couldn't support. I could definitely see bossa nova being more popular in the states than in brazil, brazil has so many different styles of music and regional variations. Must be like jazz, especially back ion the days when cats like lester young pretty much had to go to france to earn a decent living, the music was much more accepted and popular there than it was here in the states.