RitmoBoricua wrote:If some of the purist do not go by the formula or concept of 3/2 or 2/3 they rather feel it I am wondering if they can feel the concept of playing “cruzao”. Or there is no “cruzao” playing for them.
RitmoBoricua wrote:David, It seems to me there are songs in (son clave) that begin in the last beat of the 3 side, that beat that is heavily accented. . . in the mountains when we played "Jibaro music" which is clave based too nobody explained things in the 3/2 or 2/3 concept, they will tell you you are playing cruzao but no in terms 3 side or 2 side of the clave, they had their own way of explaining things.
thomas newton wrote:Does Michael know that you are quoting his private emails on this public forum?
thomas newton wrote:Does Michael know that you are quoting his private emails on this public forum?
davidpenalosa wrote:Good point. Vasik you should probably let Mike know that you quoted his private email and apologize in advance for any breach of protocol.
-David
bongosnotbombs wrote:vasikref,
I assume your not a native english speaker, so this use of the word "feel" is really confusing.
Feelings are subjective and can differ from person to person. When you say feel do you mean
counting?
How can guaguanco be possibly be "felt" in 3/2 or 2/3? It's ALWAYS played the same way in relationship to clave.
Different songs will start singing in different places in the rhythm, but that does not change the order of the
rhythm to clave. Guaguanco always feels like guaguanco.
davidpenalosa wrote:In conclusion, it is undeniably true that Cuban rumberos do not use the 3-2/2-3 concept or terminology. I used to use 3-2/2-3 in folkloric music in much the same way Mike does. About ten years ago I began writing about 3-2/2-3 and in the process of trying to explain it I discovered some of the main points I've shared in this thread. I realized that I actually didn't fully understand what 3-2/2-3 was and what it wasn't. In your own interactions with North American and European musicians you will probably encounter use of the 3-2/2-3 concept in rumba. You will not find its use among Cuban rumberos. Since you have heard two sides of this argument, you are now well prepared for dealing with these different musical viewpoints.
vasikgreif wrote:When I use feel I mean where you "feel" the beat one of the rhythm, the point where the rhythm/song starts. I know it is always the same rhythm and in the same relation to clave, but you can "feel" the beat one in any place. Any song can be "felt" from any place, right? How you hear a song depends mainly on your musical experiences and the place you are from, I think...
Now, guaguanco is two bar. What I'm asking is if you switch to "feel" the guaguanco as 2-3, when the singer sings some kind of phrase - or if guaguanco is always "felt" 3-2 and the singer feels the beat one on three side all the time. The point is I'm able to switch between 3-2 and 2-3 feel of the song, I mean hear the beat one on both sides of clave, but I don't know which way is correct, that means if guaguanco is always 3-2 or if the "feel" changes in relation to what singer sings...
bongosnotbombs wrote:Does that also mean you can feel the "one" on the "two"?
bongosnotbombs wrote:Guaguanco is only two bar if it is written down and then written in 1/8 notes. I write it down as one bar with 1/16 notes.
I can't feel the beat of "one" in just any place, because the tres dos plays on the 3, or more accurately the third hit of clave.
Rumba clave begins with the first hit, then the bombo, then the third hit, etc, and that is always the order. When a singer starts
with playing rumba clave he plays it that way and then begins to sing where the song begins in relationship to clave, the clave doesn't change when he begins singing, nor does the rhythm.
In an actual rumba, the drummers can play guaguanco without ever stopping, for several singers each one singing
different songs that start in different places, with different coros. The clave stays the same, and the base rhythm never changes.
bongosnotbombs wrote:The singer can start to sing almost anywhere, but that does not change that beat to the 1.
bongosnotbombs wrote:I agree with David, there is no 3/2, 2/3; there is only clave. The Cuban singers and players I know never, ever mention "1", it is always "listen to the clave".
Thomas Altmann wrote:But I feel that the song and the drumming work - harmoniously, but to a certain degree independently - on two separate musical levels. They know of each other; so the singer can (must) start any song in the right place to stay in clave, and the drummers respond to the singer's signals by changing toques at the right time. But it remains basically a dual action.
Thomas Altmann wrote:And does the clave change sometimes during that first ("verse") section of a rumba in shorter periods, too? As a result: Is the consideration of a dualistic clave orientation (either 3-2 or 2-3) in folkloric Rumba inappropriate or even pointless?
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