davidpenalosa wrote:blavonski wrote:Swing is not an original African Rhythmic element introduced to Jazz. Swing is a uniquely African American creation as a result of the African rhythmic conception in the americas, USA in particular adapting itself to european american musical forms. And before it began to swing, it was more of shuffle and or rocking feeling as a result of drummers like Baby Dodds and Zutty Singleton going from Strong beats 1&3 to weak beats 2&4 with added eigth notes. And it was brought to the fore in american popular music by Louis Armstrong. And as Mr. Armstrong has demonstrated, it is more feeling than any musicaologist can precisely define in strict musical terms.
OK, so it’s a feeling (agreed), that musicologists can’t define, but you can, and your definition excludes music from Africa.
“SWING: An intangible rhythmic momentum in jazz. …Swing defies analysis; claims to its presence may inspire arguments. But it is meaningful as a general concept: in swing and bebop, ‘swinging’ triplet subdivisions of quarter notes (or of eighth notes at slow tempos, halves at fast tempos) contrast with duple subdivisions . . .”—The New Harvard Dictionary of Music (1986: 818).
blavonski wrote:Like wise the Afro-cuban swing feeling is uniquely its own creation.
Actually certain aspects of Afro-Cuban music share the same qualities of swing as straight ahead jazz. But yeah, generally speaking, the two have many significant differences.blavonski wrote:. . . it is interesting to note that you repeatedly refer to Jazz rhythmic elements as if they lie outside of an African rhythmic concept. .
No, you have misunderstood me. I was attempting to differentiate between those African rhythmic elements, which are a part of jazz (say, up to the post bop era), and those African rhythmic elements, which are not.blavonski wrote:. . . it is obvious to me that your relation to and understanding of jazz music is an academic one or maybe also casual listener.
OUCH!!!
Now, you are fighting dirty! You’ve called me an academic, who can’t play!! It’s “obvious” you say? I’m afraid your powers of perception have failed you, because you were not able to perceive a lifetime of playing music, including jazz. May I suggest that we stick to the substance of the thread topic, rather than attempting to deny the other’s credentials?blavonski wrote:Do you play Jazz, drums or any other instrument?
Yes. By the way, I first performed “Footprints” in the 1970s, on flute, and later, on percussion.blavonski wrote:. . . I can answer, refute that statement with one instrument and that is the Hi-Hat. Traditonally it guides the rhythm on Beats 2&4, a binary division of the 4/4 meter and it is repeated, it is continuous.
It’s true what you say. The repeating hi-hat only makes your case in the most general sense. If you listen to highlife, juju, samba, and son montuno, you will hear several significant shared African rhythmic elements not present in jazz. I thought this was obvious.blavonski wrote:And concerning your mention of counterpoint, to my knowledge, it is a European compositional, melodic device/technique.
Yes, but most music terminology originated from Western music traditions. Do you have a better term for the interaction of contrary attackpoints as expressed in African and Diaspora musics?blavonski wrote:As I understand it, the clave whether 3:2 or 2:3 is divided over two bars 4 beats per measure. By contrast, african american 3 over 2 patern is divided and contained with in one bar, 4 beats per measure algamation.
The three-over-two cross rhythm is like you say, one bar (if we write clave in two bars). The "one bar" structure pervades African music, as well as Afro-Cuban music. The bass line in Mongo’s “Afro Blue” is an obvious example.
Gotta go. I have a busy day ahead of me.
-David
pcastag wrote:jeez I've had about enough of this guy. If Jazz didn't have any African elements how the hell did black people invent it then?
pcastag wrote:Why didn't some oakies from Oklahoma start playing it?
blavonski wrote:I didn't call you an acedemic who can't play, I stated what I percieved your relationship to JAZZ to be and I made no mention of your playing abilities; I asked a direct question.
blavonski wrote:But by the above recent post I think I was half correct in my presumption.
blavonski wrote:So, are you a classically trained musician?
blavonski wrote:. . . you've done a nice of job evading and misconstruing some important points I made.
blavonski wrote: . . . swing is an African american creation not an African one. That is to say, Africans didn't bring the finished concept of swing with them to the Americas.
blavonski wrote:My mention of the Hi-hat refuted your claim on the money.davidpenalosa wrote: However, jazz drumming does not contain a lot of other African elements, such as the binary guide-pattern (like clave), or multi-part counterpoint built upon repetition.
blavonski wrote:yes, Polyrhythms.davidpenalosa wrote: Do you have a better term for the interaction of contrary attackpoints as expressed in African and Diaspora musics?
blavonski wrote: Dig what Franky Donlop is puttin down on his reide cymbal here: You can fast forward toward the end to see him playing it. It is the difintive ride pattern and has been around a long , long time.
(tat ti tat, tat tat or tat tat, tat ti tat)
http://youtu.be/gLmnmja72vA
I would post more and earlier one but don't have time.
Here's again one of my favorite Jazz drummers displaying it all in his own elegant way:http:
http://youtu.be/kbXK-Q1jsy0
congamyk wrote:pcastag wrote:jeez I've had about enough of this guy. If Jazz didn't have any African elements how the hell did black people invent it then?
I honestly think many people can't even read or write intelligently. I feel like I'm responding to children.
I didn't say that jazz didn't have a single African element. Go read what I said.
And your question is silly.
What you just asked is as stupid as assuming that "rap" was invented by "Africans" using African elements - just because they were "black".
Did Africans "invent" rap too? No, black Americans invented rap.
Early jazz music developed from all things American - not African.
Many of the musicians were mixed Creole, other or of European ancestry.
And they didn't "invent" anything from scratch, the music developed over time from mixed elements of all of the existing music they heard at the time.
Nearly all of the elements were Euro/American; the instruments, the chords, the melodies, the lyrics... all American.pcastag wrote:Why didn't some oakies from Oklahoma start playing it?
Maybe because "Oakies" weren't even around yet.
Aren't you a teacher of some sort and don't even know American history?
Another reason public schools are crap.
pcastag wrote:congamyk wrote:pcastag wrote:jeez I've had about enough of this guy. If Jazz didn't have any African elements how the hell did black people invent it then?
I honestly think many people can't even read or write intelligently. I feel like I'm responding to children.
I didn't say that jazz didn't have a single African element. Go read what I said.
And your question is silly.
What you just asked is as stupid as assuming that "rap" was invented by "Africans" using African elements - just because they were "black".
Did Africans "invent" rap too? No, black Americans invented rap.
Early jazz music developed from all things American - not African.
Many of the musicians were mixed Creole, other or of European ancestry.
And they didn't "invent" anything from scratch, the music developed over time from mixed elements of all of the existing music they heard at the time.
Nearly all of the elements were Euro/American; the instruments, the chords, the melodies, the lyrics... all American.pcastag wrote:Why didn't some oakies from Oklahoma start playing it?
Maybe because "Oakies" weren't even around yet.
Aren't you a teacher of some sort and don't even know American history?
Another reason public schools are crap.
The next year, on May 2, 1890, Congress passed the Oklahoma Organic Act, which organized the western half of Indian Territory into Oklahoma Territory
jazz scholars consider generally Buddy Bolden ito be the first bandleader to play the improvised music which later became know as Jazz. He was the first "King" of cornet in New Orleans, and is remembered by the musicians of that time period as one of the finest horn players they had ever heard. He is remembered for his loud, clear tone. His band starting playing around 1895,
Maybe they were idiot.
Obviously you are too dumb to note sarcasm.
My kids go to public schools, they are very smart, I am a public school product, I consider myself fairly smart.
You might not be a public school product, but you sir are most definitely an idiot.
But since you are so much more enlightened than the rest of us you can just consider my rantings those of a lunatic child like publicly educated fool.
Fine by me.
blavonski wrote: . . . swing is an African american creation not an African one. That is to say, Africans didn't bring the finished concept of swing with them to the Americas.
davidpenalosa wrote:PC,
Thanks for turning me onto "Spooky Drums #1." I don't hear clave in that piece though. I do hear 4/4 cross-beats (duple subdivisions grouped in threes) extended over several measures. It's awesome! If you play five consecutive 4/4 cross-beats, the result is a figure that shares four of the five strokes of clave:
X . . X . . X . . X . . X . . .
That figure is played several times. I wouldn't say that "Spooky Drums #1" implies clave, but if that's how you hear it, I certainly understand why.
I'm very happy to have this tune.
-David
pcastag wrote:
The next year, on May 2, 1890, Congress passed the Oklahoma Organic Act, which organized the western half of Indian Territory into Oklahoma Territory
jazz scholars consider generally Buddy Bolden ito be the first bandleader to play the improvised music which later became know as Jazz. He was the first "King" of cornet in New Orleans, and is remembered by the musicians of that time period as one of the finest horn players they had ever heard. He is remembered for his loud, clear tone. His band starting playing around 1895,
Maybe they were idiot.
davidpenalosa wrote: The only definition The New Harvard Dictionary of Music gives for swing is the “general concept” that “‘swinging’ triplet subdivisions of quarter notes (or of eighth notes at slow tempos, halves at fast tempos) contrast with duple subdivisions.” That definition of swing also applies to rhythmic phenomena in African, and other Diaspora music besides jazz.
blavonski wrote: Frankly David, I'm not concerned with or interested in what any lexicon scribbles down to define what I've been doing naturally my whole life. If your thinking too much about it, then you're possibly not feeling as you aught to be.
blavonski wrote: As Ornette Coleman once expressed,"...to reduce music analytically is to reduce it to nothing very important."
blavonski wrote: . . . the Hi-Hat does in fact constitute a multi part counter-Rhythm analogous to whatever African diapsora musics you want to name.
pcastag wrote: Actually this is what he plays. listen to the tom accents right after the press roll
..x..x..x..x..x. you have the first down beat on the one which is incorrect, it's exactly the same as the clave used in bossa nova,it is not implied it's actually played. It's also not five duples grouped in three , for the beat to repeat itself in 4/4 time the last one ( which begins on 4 of the second bar) has to contain a grouping of four eighth notes to fall on the two of the following measure, which it does. He does that twice, then plays
..X..X..X..X....XX then of to the wood blocks
That as I stated is not implied, its a clear 2/3 figure that is clearly stated at the beginning of the solo.
pcastag wrote:I really think this figure developed independently in afro-american music unless there is evidence to the contrary.
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