Camaleon 3/2 & 2/3 switch question

[Tonio]

Hola Congueros!!

Happy New year!!

I hope some of you are familiar with the tune Camaleon by Ruben Blades. My Latin band is trying to inpocorporate this tune into our repetoire. A issue came up with the 3/2 & 2/3 clave switch. We even referenced the chart in Salsa Latin book. On the 1st switch from 2/3 to 3/2, there is no odd#'d measures, and it there was it was resolved with a break.

I>E> prior to part D, there is no odd measure sections, so how can they just switch claves? I need to recheck the recording.

Soo.. my question is , did they do this on purpose or is there something amiss? I don't think there is actually any claves in the recording. But how/why would they do this? For the sake of it?

Just rantng at this point


??? ???

[pcastag]

This is not unusual. Some salsa tunes will change without having odd bars because the melody or mona fits better in 3/2 or 2/3 clave. For a detailed description and analysis of clave visit the site http://www.timba.com . Pretty cool stuff
PC

[Tonio]

Hey good points pcastag. Thanks for the Timba link, could'nt find any instructional info there, however.
Timba is more modern ,crossover medling of different genre's compared to Camaleon no? Which is more traditional in a sense.
I realize that not all tunes and/or arrangements abide by the strick clave "rule", to give a push / pull feel more appropriate for the melody/ mona. On Camaleon, it is the section prior to the conga solo which interestingly gives a mambo feel which builds up the momentum for the solo, to be followed by the coro/pregon etc. Nice arrangement indeed. Not sure I like Rubens vox temperment though.

T

[pcastag]

Here's a link to the clave article

http://www.timba.com/fans/clave_debates.asp

Check it out, it's really informative!

[Tonio]

ah, who would of thought to look in the fans section.
Thanks for the link pcastag. Good reading !!



Edited By Tonio on 1136861762

[windhorse]

I love the way he explains the different claves!
I have found after a few years of playing clave either of the first downbeat or on it, that it actually feels the same.. It's now easy to interchange, though when starting out, just the thought of it was impossible. This explanation would have helped a great deal!

Great article!

[Diceman]

Good article, I will feel more confident about standing my ground in the great debate.
Probably get me into more fights tho'

Diceman

[JohnnyConga]

I have been involved with this "clave" arguement my whole 40 years of playing, this article makes it clear as to the "Cuban consciousness" about La Clave, and the examples therein....now just maybe the arguement will be over after this article.....Very good examples,still confusing I would imagine, to some.... ??? "JC" Johnny Conga...

[Raymond]

Where is the "jump" in the clave in Camaleon? Let me know.

Saludos!

[Tonio]

Its in section D, if I remember correctly (I don't have the sheet in front of me) the mona prior to the congas adlib/solo.
I think it switches again later on too.

I 'll check it out tonightand let you know.

T

[JohnnyConga]

PS as Juan Formell said about clave ...."We have Clave License". The Cubans definetly have that,and in there lies all the confusion on clave....."JC" Johnny Conga... PS on timba.com on the fan page ..there are 7 pages of explanation on that "Clave License"...... ???

[davidpenalosa]

..as Juan Formell said about clave ...."We have Clave License". The Cubans definetly have that,and in there lies all the confusion on clave....."JC" Johnny Conga...

Hey Johnny,
This may just be due to my own particular experience, but I've found that most of the confusion concerning clave I've encountered is not related to the "Cuban Clave License". In Kevin Moore's "The Four Great Clave Debates":
http://www.timba.com/fans/clave_debates.asp
..only one of the debates ""Clave Debate #4: Of the three ways to "change clave", is only one of them "correct"?"" actually gets into the issue of license.

Most of the clave confusion I've encountered concern either
1.)
The differences between the Cuban terminology and concepts and their NYC-originated counterparts.
or
2.)
The limitations of applying the 3-2, 2-3 clave terminology and concept to folkloric music. I addressed this second issue in a posting within the "Rumba Feel" thread:
http://www.congaplace.com/cgi-bin....2;st=30

There were no responses to that post, which leads me to believe that I'm boring people to tears.:p

In a question-and-answer session at Havana's ENA I held Juan Formell's feet to the fire, trying to get him, to acknowledge that some Cuban composers "break clave". He continued to dodge my questions. I wish he had just said "we have Clave License, get over it". That would have satisfied me. Anyway, I read the interview in "101 Montunos" where he said essentially the same thing, so there I go.
-David

[windhorse]

I addressed this second issue in a posting within the "Rumba Feel" thread:
http://www.congaplace.com/cgi-bin....2;st=30

There were no responses to that post, which leads me to believe that I'm boring people to tears.:p

On the contrary, some - such as myself - may feel like they have nothing more to contribute to something elequently stated. And may actually be waiting in anticipation to your next post. Or perhaps we're still thinking about it and mulling it over. That's a good thing right? Several people on this list, such as yourself, are extremely wise and practiced. I always appreciate your postings.

Dave

[Tonio]

Raymond- the clave takes the Claves license (switch) on section D to 3/2 actually the pregon, prior to the conga solo.The conga solo (section E) take another switch to 2/3. The rest seems to be the "traditional" switch due to odd measure.

I have the chart in The Latiin Real Book, both the melody and rythm section pages while I'm listening.

ha so Ruben did use the "Clave License" !! so when was it recorded? Anyone know? Its funny even in that article it says Ruben was one to be a non Clave license user?????

Hows that for independance of being a arranger and resolvement eh?



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[davidpenalosa]

Dave,
Thanks for the positive feedback. I don't think many of us get into this music in order to theorize about it, so I'm not surprised that a lot of congueros are not interested in these more esoteric clave issues.
-David