Pioneers on Afro and Caribbean Percussion

[zaragemca]

Greeting,are you telling me that I have to thanks you for correcting me?...when was the occasion for the correction David?.Dr.Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

Dr. Zaragemca,
I corrected you concerning the use of bata in non-traditional contexts and the innovations of Tito Puente. My tastes center on Cuban music played by Cubans, but I would never dismiss or attempt to minimize the contributions of the Nuroricans to our music. I often give you the benefit of the doubt because English is not your first language. Sometimes I can’t tell if you are incorrect, or are just choosing inappropriate words. It’s clear you have some knowledge of Cuban music and I have appreciated learning a few new things by reading your posts. Other times you put forward fuzzy concepts such as your "Arara-Ewe patterns" and other times you are plain wrong.

Dr. Z:
"I'm all the time in this and other forums,rectifying misconceptions,and misinformation,"

me:
You are more concerned with appearing to be correct than actually being correct. Being correct involves amongst other things, being open to being corrected yourself. The sad thing is that your pompous posturing probably leads people to dismiss you entirely. You included yourself in a list of innovators: Lazaro Alfonso,Los Munequitos de Matanzas, Los Papines, Billy Cohbam and Tito Puente. C’mon man, you are not in their league, you aren’t even in the league of a Michael Spiro. Here’s a tip: leading a "drum circle" and then claiming you are a "Master Percussionists from Cuba,and an authority in Afrocuban Music-Percussion,and Yorubas Culture" is a sure-fire way to be dismissed by others. It’s just plain embarrassing. Anybody who’s been involved in our music for any amount of time knows who the masters and authorities are and you sir, are not one of them. This is not to say that you do not have knowledge and talent. It is to say that you are over inflating your standing within this music. Instead of keeping the focus on the music, you continue to draw attention to this shortcoming of yours.

-David

[zaragemca]

Greeting ,David you didn't provide any correction to me in relation to what you said about the Batas,(I already mentioned in my article in relation to Afrocuban Percussion the use of the Batas since 1930's by Gilberto Valdez in an non traditional context)...In relation to Tito Puente,(I'm the one telling you that Tito Puente observed somebody else,(cubans), doing what you said his is an innovator for).The Arara-Ewe could be fuzzy for you becouse you might not have sombody from that culture to talk to you as I had... And please every single time I point out to sombody that it is incorrect,I do follow with the correction,(I don't use that trick of telling anybody that he is just wrong, without comming up with the point).Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1119549249

[Ivan]

Greeting ,david you didn't provide any correction to me in relation to what you said about the batas,(I already mentioned in my article in relation to Afrocuban Percussion the use of the Batas since 1930's by Gilberto Valdez in an non traditional contex...In relation to Tito Puente,(I'm the one telling you that Tito Puente observed somebody else,(cubans), doing what you said his is an innovator for).

??? ??? I am confused...

It is one thing to have so much knowledge, but what use does it have if one cannot teach? This is what has troubled me in the past with percussionists that call themselves teachers... Until I met my brother JC I was another young buck trying to learn something new, but no one could teach it to me... There was consistantly a "battle" for who is better, badder and more knowledgeable... If we all left our egos at the door - we could all learn something from each other...

DR Z, Don't get me wrong brother, I respect all that you know, but wish you could share what you know in a context in which we all could learn from... In every post I seem to read your postings as condisending towards others... I wonder, is this your intention.

Respectfully,
Ivan



Edited By Ivan on 1119549248

[zaragemca]

Greeting Ivan,I did provide the context and the venue 15 years ago,(that's why I been in Houston for long time teaching),and beatting 'Los Cueros for 37 years',If somebody thinks that I'm kitting,the internet is not the place to argue about it, the field is David,thanks for your replay.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1119549662

[davidpenalosa]

Dr.:
"If somebody thinks that I'm kitting,the internet is not the place to argue about it, the field is David"

me:
What does this mean? We should step outside and settle this?

-David

[Ivan]

There was consistantly a "battle" for who is better, badder and more knowledgeable... If we all left our egos at the door - we could all learn something from each other...

Respectfully,
Ivan

Like I said... There is no value or anything to learn from this...

Dr Z, Myself and many others on this forum use it as a learning tool not as boxing ring to watch elders duke it out... Personally, I can't learn from someone who refuses to learn themselves... Like I said before, what good is knowledge if it can't be taught in a diplomatic and positive manner.

David:
What does this mean? We should step outside and settle this?

Ivan: I think he means a battle of drum... I've seen this challenge in other postings before... It always seems to end up that way, unfortunately...

Respectfully as always...

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Ivan,
I've been discussing and debating musical issues on-line for several years now and I don't recall the kind of "duel of the drums" you referred to. You learn something every day I guess. I don't find such challenges offensive. All we can do however, is talk about music here and not actually play it. It's difficult to talk about music in abstract terms. Some people like Bobby Sanabria (Yahoo Latinjazz e-group) is very articulate and reading his posts is always educational. But even he shys away from discussing technical issues on-line because such discussions often get bogged-down. I enjoy the debates and wealth of information available in these types of forums. I also believe that I have something to contribute. A few people have unfortunately gotten hung up on the "my drum stick is bigger than your drum stick" kind of thing, which provides nothing of value to the discussion. I believe that one's points should be judged on the merits of their ideas and not upon whatever importance one sees themselves possessing.

-David

[Ivan]

Hi Ivan,
I've been discussing and debating musical issues on-line for several years now and I don't recall the kind of "duel of the drums" you referred to. You learn something every day I guess.

"my drum stick is bigger than your drum stick" kind of thing, which provides nothing of value to the discussion. I believe that one's points should be judged on the merits of their ideas and not upon whatever importance one sees themselves possessing.

David,

I agree with you 100%... I have seen your reports and articles all over the net. I was excited and humbled to see that you've joined us here at congaplace...

When I said i've seen this "challenge" before I was referring to DR Z's past postings on this forum - not yours...

I think both you and I are saying the same thing and beating a dead horse at this point...

I will be the first one to admit that I have learned a lot and made quite a few connections on this forum alone-for which I am greatful for...

But I always get disappointed when those I am trying to learn from fall in to Z's black hole of "my drum stick is bigger than yours..." :;): I totally understand where you are coming from, but trust me this debate with Dr Z will keep you going in circles only because he has not learned to humble himself.

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Ivan,
Thanks for your praise and you are correct. I have been going in circles.

-David

[Ivan]

Vaya my drum brotha...

[Berimbau]

I've been on the road touring and too busy to keep up much with this marvelous forum, but came to this thread only now. True innovators aren't always recognized, are often "journey men/women" players whose advanced techniques become associated with more FAMOUS performers. As David Bowie succinctly put it, "It doesn't matter who did it first, it matters who did it second!"
That being said, a few possible corrections to some of JC's assertions in this thread, with all due respect to his own great reservoir of knowledge. The Ghanian drummer/bandleader Kofi Ghanaba who worked under the Western name Guy Warren came to the U.S. in 1955 and worked with Duke Ellington, Max Roach, Thelonious Monk, and Charlie Parker, among others. He worked primarily with a Western drum kit that included a conga drum, and often soloed on an mpintin donno (talking drum). I have no evidence that he EVER played djembe, which would have been most UNUSUAL for a Ghanian drummer in that era. Today cheap djembes ARE produced for export by Ghanian drum makers for market purposes, although I believe that the majority of Ghanian drummers are quite satisfied with the instrumentarium of their own local regions. Ladji Cammara is still probably the first djembefola to make an impact in the NYC/US hand drum scene.
Let us not forget that the American percussionist Bill Summers was one of the first djembefolas heard in the Jazz scene, adding that axe to recordings by Herbie Hancock, the Headhunters, as well as on the Quincy Jones produced soundtrack to ROOTS. He is doing great work in NOLA with Los Hombres Calientes.
Kofi Ghanaba returned to his native Ghana where he has produced a number of recordings, two books, and currently plays a huge drum kit consisting ONLY of traditional Akan drums fontomfrom, apentemma, and atumpan.

Ashe'


Berimbau