cut time or 4/4 - counting

[franc]

saludos,
when does time 4/4 in latin music becomes 2/2 ?? why does i have the habit to count in 2/2 when playing , eventhough the music is written in 4/4 ?? i usually count 2/2 with my foot. when should i count the quater note in 4/4 with my foot ?? also in solo, can i count in 4/4?? by which law should i journey in time?? áche!!!! franc

[captainquinto]

Hola franc !!

Just a guess ... but it sounds like you are counting the "pulse" in time. In other words, tapping your foot on 1 and 3.
It's the beat that you feel when dancing or moving to the music.

Yes ??

All the best,

Darin

[zaragemca]

It is the same value since 4/4, is a subdivision of 2/2,for the purpose of counting it all depends of the players,some of them would use all the beats,some of the players the 1,and 3,but a lot of jazz players use just the first beat, to count bars.Dr.Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1121961473

[franc]

my friends,
yes, i'm counting 1 and 3 with my foot. so that is the feel when dancing?? great!!! isn't difficult to play counting in 4, especially doing solos?? about jazz playing , counting the first beat. do you mean you tap your foot only in the first beat?? believe this cut time 2/2 and 4/4 do confuse me when playing a song. i mostly play the bongos in the school band. like i said i always play in 2/2. please explain the subdivision of 2/2?? what is the difference in playing a song in 4/4/ and 2/2. i know that both take one bar. does a lisentner or a dancer can tell the difference??? i know very well about what the clave feel is and its' purpose in latin music. thank you, guys, franc

[zaragemca]

Greeting,There are some jazz players tapping their foot in 4/4 when doing solos,(also keeping the bass-drum in 4/4,when doing solos was the feature of Led Zeppelin's drummer),which was followed by a lot of rockers.Dancing have nothing to do with that,it is all about representation in the musical sheet, but the 2/2 formula is an old one which I haven't seen it around for long time,people usually use the 4/4.It is correct in relation to counting the first beat,the players would tap,or count only the first beat of the 4/4,Gerry Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1121986717

[Raymond]

Franc

I am not a great reader or great technical guy but one thing I've developed is that I know where that 1 is in the 4/4. (Actually arrangements in salsa are C, that is based in the time that is played. Haven't you noticed that when the leader starts a song hits twice quarter notes, to call attention, and then four to established the time signature and tempo?)

The pulse of 1 and 3 is the pulse of the cowbell and the strongest notes in the bar. Getting used to the 1, 2, 3, 4 is a matter of practice. (I don't know if you have dealt with the other type of reading of reading music that although is 4/4 is actually double the time. I've heard some Cuban arrangements are played that way).

Once you get used the 1,2,3,4, you'll get a sense of how much a bar is and doing solos will be better. Haven't you noticed that when the musical director counts to get to another part of the arrangement, mambo, coda, etc, is normally done in 4 bars. When he raises his/her hand is because there is four bars to get to that part of the arrangement. After a while you will do it "by feel" and not by counting. That "feel" is what sight readers develop to read so fast...that sense of the bar, and where in the bar are the hits...

This is practice and getting accostumed to that 1, 2, 3, 4 count or by pass that and go by bar, 1...2...3... Practice by listening to a song and count...Also, try to develop where that 1 in the bar is...it helps when you are lost...Independence in counting while playing is another things important. I have to admit that playing bongos give me a harder time to count do to the fact of the improvisational hits....but it could be done...

I hope helps...

Saludos!

[franc]

raymond,
yes, i have notice when the leader at the beginning of a song to establish the time signature and tempo count 1 ,2 and then 1,2,3,4, this tells me is in 4/4 time signature. is it the same in cut time?? this counting at the beginning does takes two bars, right?? in cut time the leader will let you know is in cut time. then will cry or yell to call attention, 1.2. then 1,2,3,4. this takes two bars. when he calls 1, 2 these are ''dos blancas y luego 1 and 2 and. which are 4 negras. isn't best to count the pulse?? yes, i have notice the counting of the director to announce another part of the arrangement, mambo ,coda, moña, etc,etc, i know is 4 bars. also know that there are different way to count the 4 bars. some count the first beat of the bar 1...2...3...4... etc. others do 1...2...1.2.3.4. am i correct?? i preffered the ladder counting. again, is that the 4/4 and 2/2 gets me confused sometimes ,mostly in performing a solo. thank you once again. fellows, i'm still learning. trying to move up from intermediate to more advance :blush: áche to all!!! franc

[ricky linn]

Hi

There is not really a difference theoretically between the two. 2/2 or cut common time is more to do with the tempo and is used in faster tempos. It evolved in the european classical tradition where conductors could not conduct four beats to a measure at very fast tempos and therefor conducted 2 minums per bar, i.e. just conducting 1 + 3 of the four beats. Also due to the tempo it is easier to hear and feel just the 1 + 3 as the pulse as all four beats are too rapid. You will find that the very fast latin styles such as conga, merengue, etc are written in 2/2.

Hope this helps

[franc]

ricky, thanks a lot. so if the tempo is faster is best to count in 2/2. if slower then count in 4/4. it all depend in what you considered fast or slow tempo, right???. my best to you, franc

[zaragemca]

Greeting,a resource which is used now by the bands in relation to tempo,is providing the RPM,which is also used in controlling the tempo in recording.Dr. Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

All clave-based music and dance is grounded in a cycle of four main beats (or pulses if you prefer). The main beats are commonly written as half-notes in 4/4 and dotted quater-notes in 6/8. Each beat is subdivided into three and/or four subdivisions (commonly written as eight-notes). The typical method of notating the music in two bars of 4/4 has been a continual source of confusion in the Latin music world. If you think of it as 2/2 you will be fine. That means you will tap your foot four times per clave (two measures), be it "4/4" clave or "6/8" clave. You may find it easier to tap your foot eight times per "4/4" clave and six times per "6/8" clave. However, this is folly. While the four beat cycle may be awkward at first, it won't be for long and you will feel the music correctly.

-David

[ABAKUA]

Greeting,a resource which is used now by the bands in relation to tempo,is providing the RPM,which is also used in controlling the tempo in recording.Dr. Zaragemca

RPM?

Dont you mean BPM?

I still see no relevance in your post, but hey, whats new. ???



Edited By ABAKUA on 1122086492

[franc]

david and others,
so i'm going to stay with two pulse with my foot per measure 2/2 ''en la marcha'' and in ''solos''. going into a ''breaks'' i will go for four count per measure. thank you all and áche!!! myb best, franc

[davidpenalosa]

hey franc,
If I undertand you correctly, you tap your foot four times per clave during the marcha and eight times per clave during solos. If that's correct, I'm wondering if you still tap eight times if you momentarily shift into triple subdivisions ("6/8") in a solo? That seems much harder to me than tapping four times, but that's me. Yes, I said that four times is the correct way, but I'm not trying to argue at the moment. I'm trying to undertstand your technique of keeping time. Thanks in advance.

-David

[Raymond]

Franc,

You need to strive to "internalize" the feel of the bar in the particular arrangement you are playing . (If you get too concious about it, you might screw it, either get mechanical or mess up. In solos, you don't have to be aware of anything besides the clave. If you are concerned about "finishing up" a solo, all you have to do is be aware of the musical leader "marking" the timing to go to the "other part of the arrangement.).

Recommend you stay, for afro-cuban arrangements, in 4/4. (You'll count more in 2/2). Of course, if you are told otherwise go that way.

Saludos!