cut time or 4/4 - counting

[zaragemca]

Greeting,RPM,or BPM, is going to determine the specific speed/tempo of the son,(since differents musicians could have a different concept of how fast,or how slow the rhythms of the son could be played in any genre,and when it is time to record the songs in the studio,they have to spend hours adapting to the click.Dr Zaragemca

[ABAKUA]

when it is time to record the songs in the studio,they have to spend hours adapting to the click

Considering what it costs to record a decent product, and having recorded many times, I would suggest perhaps that these musicians who 'spend hours adapting to click' should not in fact be recording.
Hours adapting to the click? Then there is something wrong with the musicians timing if not experience and talent also.
I refuse to work with musicians with shocking timing. Its one thing I simply cannot stand.

Getting back to the actual topic, in 4/4 - I at times tap the 4 beats of the bar on the beat during playing by tapping with the heel of my right foot, at times my left to give my right a break. (I play standing.) During solo's I dont tap, I merely internalize the feeling of clave and the beat and its place int he bar and listen to my timbalero, the piano, and bass, I do not count, I know the arrangement so I feel/internalize what I am going to express, similar to what Raymond explained.



Edited By ABAKUA on 1122212548

[Raymond]

Franc,

With all due respect with a 2/2 count, and then changing to 4/4, I think you will get lost and crossed...

Personally, I stress the "internatilization" of the bar, tempo and clave you are playing and the best way is to practice counting just bars 1....2....3, etc. (The numbers is the bar and not the beat or hit). Last but not least, I find useful to always identify where is the 1 in the bar...If you get lost, by identifying the clave in the arrangement, i.e., started in 3/2, etc, you will be able to get back to whatever you are doing.

Also, as a percussionist, unless you are playing something for the first time by sight reading, you should not have pressure of been aware of time signatures or bars. In "afro-cuban" gigs, all you have to be aware is what part of the arrangement are you in, into, mambo, mona, etc, and be aware of the "signs" by the leader to move to another part of the arrangement and that includes solos....(This is under the assuption you are playing in clave and playing what you are supposed to play in regards to the "base rhythm" you are supposed to be playing).

Give it a thought....Your question is interesting but go with the flow here and don't complicate yourself....

Saludos!

[R A Miller]

franc,

If the band you're playing in has a piano, listen to the montuno. The montuno emphasizes the down beat (the 1) on the 2 side of the clave. FWIW from a beginner to latin music (and a pianist, no congas yet), I find it easiest to follow the pulse (1 & 3).

Rick

[zaragemca]

Well Rick,that is true with the pianist playing the traditional way,but I could tell you that since the 70's, there are some pianists into the Songo, BataRumba and Timba, which are not going to give up the one count,they moved the parameters of the musical phrase,(in the cuban music, it was the bass the one doing it first,and now in some bands it is the piano also),in the 1940's it was incorporated in to the Jazz which is called 'Bep Bop'.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1122245746

[franc]

david, raymond and others
i guess you are right is best to count in 2/2 for all kind of kind of arrangements.; since i started in music in the beginning i have only count 2 beats per measure or bar. i will keep doing four tapping for clave and two for each bar in 6/8. this is for raymond i do mostly sight reading in music. i,m into that now ''internalizing'' the bars. like you said. identify the 1 beat of the bar . about the clave , i hardly miss it ,since i count the 4 beat it takes. my best to you guys!!! franc

[R A Miller]

Hey Dr. Z

Thanks for clarifying my post. I should not make such sweeping generalizations. In music, you learn the rules so you can break the rules.

Are you referring to pushing the downbeat? If so I am familiar with this in other styles. Could you recommend some recordings of piano using this in the musical styles that you listed?

Now, about this "Bep Bop"....... ???

Best

Rick

[zaragemca]

Greeting,the answer to Miller,..Chucho Valdez is one of the example in cuban music,Los Van-Van,NG La Banda,Grupo Musical 'Orichas',etc.In the jazz,..Dizzy Guillespie's,Artuto 'Chico' O'farrill,'Bird' Parker,Rene Hernandez,etc.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1122402664

[JohnnyConga]

Yo R A...anything by Peruchin-Eddie & Charlie Palmieri-Michel Camillo-Larry Harlow-Gonzalo Rubalcaba....."JC" Johnny Conga...

[ralph]

Peruchin is the one, also i would add, Alfredo Valdez Jr (played with alot of cats, most recently with Jimmy Bosch), Alfredo Rodriguez (has made a couple of cd's, Cuba Linda, Alfredo Rodriguez y Los Acereko among others, the latter Alfredo has also recently played with Jane Bunett...

[JohnnyConga]

I will be MCing tomorrow at Seattle's Jazz Alley for Jane Bunnett, I heard Hilario Duran is with her..I will give a full report on friday of the show....."JC" Johnny Conga...

[JohnnyConga]

Yo R A...what do u mean "in music u learn the rules and then break them!" ???? maybe I missed something in my 40 years of playing...could u please xplain this to us?.....Tks..."JC" Johnny Conga.....PS I will tell u that "without rules , there is anarchy"!.....

[davidpenalosa]

If I understand correctly, what R A Miller referred to as "pushing the downbeat" is the technique of displacing the piano guajeo (montuno); what Rebeca Mauleon called "beat displacement" in her book "101 Montunos". Modern Cuban pianists have been using this technique a great deal in timba and jazz.

However, I'd like to point out that it's not the "beat or "one" which is displaced, but rather the piano pattern. In other words, the clave did not shift. The "one" is still the same "one". The piano pattern's relationship to clave, "one" and the main beats changed.

-David

[zaragemca]

Greeting,I don't know why other meanings are used,(it could be easier for people to understand,or to get confused),but I always referred the meaning, as moving the parameters of the musical phrase,in relation to the time signature,I had never heard the others meanings,( which it is said,are used in those books),but thanks for the info,David...Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1122507599

[R A Miller]

That's what I was talking about davidpenalosa. I thought that might be what Dr. Z meant when he said "moved the parameters of the musical phrase". I am reading and working out of "101 Montunos" but I have not reached the part about beat displacement. I was looking for examples of this in latin music. Funny thing happened after I posted that. I have a book and play-along cd by Rebeca Mauleon entitled "Muy Caliente". I just started working on a Guaracha in 3-2 from the book and the piano montuno is displaced!

Thanks for all of the listening suggestions. I have cds by some of the artists listed and I'll check out the others. Timba sounds like something I need to check out.

Johnny Conga. An example of what I meant about the rules. I was at a piano lesson recently working on improvisation. My teacher asked me if I knew the altered-dominant scale and played it. I said yeah that's the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale and you play it over altered dominant seventh chords like 7#5#9 and 7b5#9. (Mark Levine in "The Jazz Piano Book" calls it the altered mode or diminished whole tone scale.) My teacher replied that the scale was useful in other ways and played the scale over other chords. I said that sounds cool, why does it work? He said I don't know it just does. Try it and don't limit yourself. What I got out of this is that I need to try other things than what the "rules" say I should in a given situation. Not really applicable to percussion I guess.

Whew! Sorry I got long winded and I apologize for hijacking franc's thread.

Rick