Dialogue #2 at Explorations Afro-Cuban - &-3e , e-a1

[windhorse]

David P, et al..
I'm just going over my notes from this year's 10th annual Explorations in Afro-Cuban rhythm level 3 classes.

You had notation on everything (at least the tones sans the filler notes) except the Salidor/Tres-Dos dialogue #2.

The count:
1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a
In my notes, I've got the Tres-Dos making the first dialogue with the & after the 2 with right hand, and the 3 with right hand, and e after the three with left hand.. Correct?
------O-OO------
And the Salidor responds with:
first tone with right hand on the e after the four, and the next tone with left handon the a before the one, and the last tone on the one with the right hand. Correct?
-------------O-O
O----------------

Does the Salidor go ahead and hit the remainder of it's normal phrase? Tone after the Bombo,, etc..

Also, you had mentioned the "Ponche" many times in our classes, and a friend of mine just mentioned it last night..
Could you explain the "ponche".??

Thanks,, I really enjoyed your classes,, and look forward already to next year!!!

Dave



Edited By windhorse on 1123877005

[Berimbau]

Greeting,the Tone on the second bar is higher that the other Tone,which mean it is performed, as Tamboricua said, on the Macho, (which would be tuned higher),or creating somehow a higher pitch,( when playing it). It is all about getting resources,which could be applyed in any genre since percussion and music in general have been evolving in to fusion. This is why I'm considered Master Percussionist from my students and the people which had worked with me.
Dr. Z. Gobblygook

[windhorse]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

How incredulous of you!

[Berimbau]

Silence Infidel!!! Now why aren't you genuflecting when the MASTER speaks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




lol,


Berimbau

[ABAKUA]

:D

[JohnnyConga]

GENUFLECTING?????....u got me!....hahahahahahahaha "JC" Johnny Conga.....but I like it!...

[windhorse]

I'm not the kind of guy to wait around for an answer before moving on with what I'm working on,, so have since found out the meaning of "PONCHE" - it's the tumbao, or the third note of tresillo,, and the BOMBO is the second note of tresillo.
My teacher - another Dave - explained it today..
In the lesson today we also went over the 3 tone call I had listed in the question to David P, and we think that all the notes around the call on the Salidor get hit as usual. We were pondering a handing which would lead you back to the Salidor on the last note of the call with the same hand you normally hit the "one", and that's with the left hand. So, to get there, it would make the most sense to hit the first two tones of the call with your right hand..

Feedback is welcome, though I realize this is fairly esoteric..

Dave

[davidpenalosa]

Hi all,

I’ve just returned from my extended August vacation directly following the Arcata Afro-Cuban workshop. Please forgive the late response.

Dave:
>>"The count:
1e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a
In my notes, I've got the Tres-Dos making the first dialogue with the & after the 2 with right hand, and the 3 with right hand, and e after the three with left hand.. Correct?"
------O-OO------

me:
correct

Dave:
>>"And the Salidor responds with:
first tone with right hand on the e after the four, and the next tone with left handon the a before the one, and the last tone on the one with the right hand. Correct?"
-------------O-O
O----------------

me:
correct again

Dave:
>>"Does the Salidor go ahead and hit the remainder of it's normal phrase? Tone after the Bombo,, etc.."

me:
In this particular Muñequitos "invento" the salidor (low drum) does not play it’s normal tone (called ponche) leading into main beat 3. This is taken from the Muñequitos song "La polemica". I was fortunate to study a video of them playing the song live in Matanzas. Basically, the segundo plays in the first have of clave, while the tumba plays in the second half. The segundo holds its part while the tumba talks. The same approach is found with the tumba playing the first ponche instead of segundo, like it usually does.

Dave:
>>"Also, you had mentioned the "Ponche" many times in our classes, and a friend of mine just mentioned it last night. Could you explain the "ponche".??"

La polemica
Me:
Ponche is the pick-up before main beat 1 and 3. Ponche is 2+ and 4+. The most common basic supportive drum part in an Afro-Cuban ensemble emphasizes ponche: bembe, iyesá, makuta, palo, abakuá, columbia, yambú, guaguancó , comparsa and the modern conga band marcha. The term "ponche" is most often used in reference to the common unison breaks emphasizing the ponche pulse. The constant emphasis of the ponche by the conga marcha is a basic motif in the song’s background. The significance of a ponche break in salsa is that the ponche is momentarily brought to the foreground.

Dave:
>>"the meaning of "PONCHE" - it's the tumbao, or the third note of tresillo,, and the BOMBO is the second note of tresillo."

Me:
In 6/8 you also have bombo and ponche:

||1 x B 2 P x 3 x B 4 P x||

B = bombo
P = ponche

Regardless if it’s in 4/4 or 6/8, bombo is 1a and 3a and ponche is 2+ and 4+:

6/8
||1+a2+a3+a4+a||

4/4
||1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a||

-David

[windhorse]

Thanks a bunch Dave!
I'm very happy to have learned some new variations for Rumba from you! This year's camp rocked!!
Last meeting with my colleagues I showed them the variations and they figured them out.. Most of them knew all the Salidor and Tres Dos parts,, but that last one I'll keep pushing each time until it becomes something we know.
We played Tui Tui on batajones with me on the caja to Agbe that I learned from Chris Walker last year, and Dusty on a two drum Columbia/Bembe pattern and we were sort of looking around in shock at how amazing it sounded!!

Also we sang several of the songs I brought back on Ochun with Iyesa! Cool stuff!!

Alright! Have a great year!!!
Best,
Dave

[davidpenalosa]

Hey Dave,
Glad to hear you are continuing on with the new material. See you next year I hope and "see" you in cyber-space in the meantime.

-David

[Tone]

Hello guys,

sorry to intrude in your little reunion, but what is the 10th annual Explorations in Afro-Cuban rhythm ?????
Sounds like something we should know about maybe?

Tone

[Tone]

sorry, I have seen the other topic related to this now...
Neverthe less it would be great to hear your feedback about it. May be some of us could go next time.
might get tempted for next year.

thanks

tone

[windhorse]

Hi there Tone!
http://www.humboldt.edu/~extended/afrocuban/

I do believe that the person right up front middle playing quinto in the picture is none other than Dave Penelosa who answered my question!
Yes, though the camp is expensive, it could be much more expensive if you just took that many lessons straight from the guys who teach there. It's a bargain considering the fact that you are mining from the resource rich environment and great players.
I would suggest listening to a lot of Afro-Cuban Folkloric music first so that you've got a nice background of things you've heard since the camp is so intensive.
The scenery of the redwood forest and coast are a big draw as well!
Do it! You won't regret it!

Dave

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Tone and Dave,
Yes, that's me in the middle, Jesús Alfonso (Los Muñequitos) on the left and the late Regino Jimenez on the right in that picture on the Explorations in Afro-Cuban Dance and Drum main webpage (http://www.humboldt.edu/%7Eextended/afr ... index.html). The website has a lot of information about the course.

-David

[tamboricua]

Ponche is the pick-up before main beat 1 and 3. Ponche is 2+ and 4+. The most common basic supportive drum part in an Afro-Cuban ensemble emphasizes ponche: bembe, iyesá, makuta, palo, abakuá, columbia, yambú, guaguancó , comparsa and the modern conga band marcha. The term "ponche" is most often used in reference to the common unison breaks emphasizing the ponche pulse. The constant emphasis of the ponche by the conga marcha is a basic motif in the song’s background. The significance of a ponche break in salsa is that the ponche is momentarily brought to the foreground.

Hi David,

Hope all is well! Would it be possible for you to notate the modern conga marcha you made reference to on this previous post?

Thanks in advance,

Jorge Ginorio