Rumba feel - the subtleties of the real rumba

[rumbaman]

Hey how is everyone today great i hope . Hey rumba808 do'nt be so crittical of the dr.s' spelling we aint discusing english gramar here but sharing our views and opinoions . Enjoy it here and go with the flow , i can't spell woth a heck either . Merry Christmas brotha.


Rumbaman :p

[82-1089072427]

Aloha, soy asi que apesadumbrado ofendi cualquier persona en este foro, fui significado como broma...Feliz Navidad, RumBa808

[onile]

"Iwa Pele" Abures, "Iwa Pele!"
(Good Character my brothers)


Suave!
Onile!



Edited By onile on 1135023352

[onile]

Alafia Abures!

"No one knows how the water gets inside the Coconut my brothers, but we know it's in there!" ???

Suave!
Onile!



Edited By onile on 1135023413

[rumbaman]

Hey how you guys doing . Rumba i was only bustin' your chops man . i can't spell either . welcome my brother . To get back to the post . you have to feel that 2/3 clave it is essential . Feel the rythum close your eyes and feel the rythum and the breaks witch i think are the hardest. They have to come fluently .

It takes alot of time to feel this by experience . I used to play rumba but it took me a while of playing and practicing to get at least a decent grasp on the concept of the rythum , do'nt be discuraged .

All my blessings to all of you ,thanks again for being here.


rumbaman

[davidpenalosa]

Hi rumbaman,
Were you making the point that 2-3 clave has something particular to do with rumba?
-David

[rumbaman]

hey how is every one doing today . all my blessings to all . Yes my instructor always told me to feel that clave . Especialy when you are playing guaguanco you have to deal with that 2/3 timming witch is a motha' .


rumbaman

[davidpenalosa]

Hey Rumbaman,
I’ve got a couple of pet-peeves that I rant on about in these forums from time to time. One concerns the 3-2, 2-3 clave concept and terminology. I use it a lot myself, but find there’s quite a few misconceptions out there. Here’s my take:

The 3-2, 2-3 clave terminology and concept was developed in New York City during the mid-Twentieth Century, probably by Mario Bauza. The concept resulted from the commingling of the Afro-Cuban son and African-American jazz in the Big Apple. Its use eventually spread throughout North America’s popular Latin music scene and into folkloric music as well. The 3-2, 2-3 concept may be applied to all clave-based music.

All folkloric music is viewed from a 3-2 perspective because the clave-matrix is initiated on the three-side (tension before release). Folkloric percussion parts often have a set starting place in relation to clave. Some begin in 3-2 and others in 2-3. Band percussionists on the other hand, must be comfortable with beginning their patterns in both a 3-2 and a 2-3 sequence. In popular band music harmonic structure trumps the structure of clave. The chord progression determines if the entire piece of music is in 3-2 or 2-3.

There are nonetheless, no "3-2 rhythms" or "2-3 rhythms" per se. Clave sequence refers to where an instrumental or vocal part begins. So, if you are dealing with rumba songs, some enter 3-2 and other 2-3. If you are talking about the open tones of the segundo, then that’s 2-3. However, like I said, there are no "3-2 rhythms" or "2-3 rhythms". Rumba isn’t associated with one clave sequence any more than the other. You may consider guaguanco to be a "2-3 rhythm" because you identify the segundo as "one".

The Cuban don’t deal with the 3-2, 2-3 concept. When American or European students ask Cuban teachers if something is 3-2 or 2-3, they often get funny answers. One reason for this is the misunderstanding of some Cubans identifying 3-2 rumba clave as "2-3 clave" because the pattern can be perceived as a grouping of two strokes, followed by a grouping of three strokes.

If I have misunderstood you, I apologize. Regardless, thanks for allowing me to rant once again.

Happy Holidays!

-David

[davidpenalosa]

[All folkloric music is viewed from a 3-2 perspective because the clave-matrix is initiated on the three-side (tension before release).]

Sorry, I meant to say "All folkloric rhythms".

-David

[Isaac]

I was playing for several years and slowly working on my rumba, and having a very frustrating time. I listened to Mongo, Los Papines, and Los Munequitos. I got together with a few guys once a week and got comfortable with the Tumbadora
for a few years. I was very happy in that seat, and didn't
feel a need to touch a quinto yet. This was in the 80s. Luckily, Los Papines came to Toronto for 5 days, playing at a Hotel and doing some afternoon shows also. I was there everyday soaking it up and came back every night. Of course they have their own unique way. But the week long event lets one see the "gestalt" of rumba. I picked up a bit more just by watching. The visual aspect and watching the dancers that came with them all helped me "get it". I doubt there's anything at most music schools
that could teach as much about this feel, at least there
wasn't in those years, to my knowledge. We had a
Ghanaian drumming ensemble at U. of Toronto.
Now I'm far from an advanced rumbero, but the "feel" is something I get. It's the well I can draw from when
I get a solo opportunity or invent my own sounds. In 1988 I finally got to go to Cuba,
and spent two weeks at Folkuba, the school run by
the Conjunto Folklorico Nacional. There were well trained
jazz drummers in my class who kept asking "Where's the 1?" All they got was a deadpan look from our teacher probably
thinking (What the %#$@! you talkin about?) He said,
you have to feel it. There were
some fast learners who got it all written down and then played it very robotically. I won't name the countries
they're from.. They seemed to think writing it down was more important than catching the feel
& watching with the eyes and just experiencing it. It's
an oral tradition, which is what we're part of right here,
albeit on the web. I decided
to put my notepad down and just be "in the moment", and
let it happen. For me the visual was the best part,
and I got some notes later from the jazz prof in my class.
Now I'd love to get back to Cuba again one day.
I can't complain because New York ( move here in 90) has some good learning/hanging situations, but you have to make the effort to go to. (living in NYC is another story) It's
always more fun to do an immersion in another country
or at workshops or at a summer camp setting. Find
some drummers near you. I'm now living in the
'burbs' of New Jersey with my wife & 2 daughters.. I met a veteran Salsa
conguero at a rumba in the Park this past summer. He retired from the scene when he had kids and settled down. We live 5 minutes from each other
so we've been getting together often and doing
some study, some rumba and folkloric jams. This is
where we find we can learn & develop further. There's
no ego or competitiveness like in the street, so it's
a win-win thing for both of us.
I'm lately trying to combine in some of the rhythms of Oman, another african diaspora
drummers tradition living in the heart of Arabia...so we can
explore both the past & the future with this. It's
very exciting. Some of it reminds me of Abacua, and
some of it is like conga Santiaguera with bagpipes!
There's also some great Rumba & folkloric videos that came out recently, (Boogalu Productions) and I recommend those highly. .. if you've not checked them out yet.
I hope they keep em coming.... and keep playing...

HAPPY HOLIDAYS & NEW YEAR !

~ ISAAC GUTWILIK

[windhorse]

My teacher firmly believes that Guaguanco and Guarapachangueo were derived from Iyesa.
Comments?

[Berimbau]

Dear Windhorse, et. al,
It is certainly your teacher's perogative to believe that guaguanco was derived from Iyesa, or that our esteemed President Bush was actually spawned in a lab by Dr. Evil who crossed a retarded squirrel monkey with a right wing jackass, but only ONE of these assertions is correct!!!!
I have no doubt that Iyesa was somewhere in the mix but I'd put more money on the baille Yuka. Even then I wouldn't bet the ranch! Cuban music just stems from SO many intersecting streams that it would be HARD at this late date to pin the tail on any single donkey. But whatthehell Windhorse, let's just have another round of mojitos and let David Penalosa weigh in on this. That guy always seems to have THE 411 on this kinda thing.


Saludos,



Berimbau

[Berimbau]

Dear Amigos,
Before I forget or some poor soul misconstrues my last post............................


...........................



.................................



the Dr. Evil story IS true!!!!!!!!!!




Saludos,


Berimbau

[davidpenalosa]

>>Windhorse: My teacher firmly believes that Guaguanco and Guarapachangueo were derived from Iyesa. Comments?

Hi Windhorse,
You can clearly see similarities between the Congolese dances yuka and makuta and the guaguanco dance, Congolese drums and the conga drum, the counter-clave phrases of the abakua bonko and the counter-clave phrases of the rumba quinto, the abakua drum melody and the rumba columbia drum melody, abakua dance steps and some of the columbia dance steps.

I don't see a connection between iyesa drumming and dancing and rumba drumming and dancing beyond the fundamentals that most of the Afro-Cuban folkloric music and dance share. Berimbau, I take your point that Cuban music stems from many intersecting streams. I have no doubt that many other influences have contributed to the evolution of rumba, but the ones I've listed are specific ones I can clearly point to.

That said, the 4/4 iyesa songs and yambu and guaguanco songs do share some unique qualities. Both have a fair amount of songs in both 3-2 and 2-3, with many of the 2-3 songs beginning on the third stroke of rumba clave. This is also the case with abakua songs.

Could you ask your teacher what aspects of iyesa he sees in Guaguanco and Guarapachangueo? Without specifics, the statement is so vague as to be of little help.
-David

[windhorse]

It was something about the point-counterpoint nature of where the Tumba and Segundo hit. He brought it up when we were playing a two drum Iyesa, and moving it into Guaguanco by mistake.