Standard ("6/8") Bell Pattern - analysis of bell patterns

[davidpenalosa]

What about Mozambique? Comparsa?
Again, we think of them as having a two-three clave bell. Are we thinking of the "one" as your "three"? Did I learn everything wrong?

The Cubans begin clave on the three-side in mozambique and comparsa too. But like you say, those bell parts do enter on the two-side. I wouldn’t say you learned everything wrong, not by any means. Don’t worry. I know where you are coming from. You have learned from a variety of sources. I’m suggesting that you sort out the sources and contexts and refine your understanding of clave. Try hearing all clave-based folkloric music from the three-side for thirty days, no obligation and your money back if not fully satisfied.
-David

[windhorse]

What about Mozambique? Comparsa?
Again, we think of them as having a two-three clave bell. Are we thinking of the "one" as your "three"? Did I learn everything wrong?

The Cubans begin clave on the three-side in mozambique and comparsa too. But like you say, those bell parts do enter on the two-side. I wouldn’t say you learned everything wrong, not by any means. Don’t worry. I know where you are coming from. You have learned from a variety of sources. I’m suggesting that you sort out the sources and contexts and refine your understanding of clave. Try hearing all clave-based folkloric music from the three-side for thirty days, no obligation and your money back if not fully satisfied.
-David

OK David you're on!
:;):

And because of all the years of playing Guauguanco and Guarapachanqueo and playing the clave, to think of the three as the segundo has become second nature. Thus, I've already got a leg up on thinking of the low note as the three in all the other 4/4 rhythms. Actually, I was making the comment to some friends recently that I was playing the clave bell pattern in some of the songs and "feeling" the one on the three side.

I get what you mean now,, and thanks so much for being a teacher!!

Question remains about the "Cantos A Los Orichas" and are they playing a bunch of Arara bell over the regular 6/8 bell??

I'm pretty sure they do on several songs.

The other Dave



Edited By windhorse on 1140010080

[davidpenalosa]

I get what you mean now,, and thanks so much for being a teacher!!

Question remains about the "Cantos A Los Orichas" and are they playing a bunch of Arara bell over the regular 6/8 bell??

Windhorse,
You are very welcome. Thanks for hanging in there with me. I know it's difficult to discuss these issues over the internet without having actual music to aid us in the moment. I think I left my copy of "Cantos A Los Orichas" at a friend's house, so I hope to have some feedback about the bell patterns on that soon for you.

PC,
Did you take a look at my analysis comparing the Arara bell pattern you posted and the standard pattern? I was wondering if you agree that they are closely related patterns?
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1140030388

[pcastag]

PC:
"I will attempt to write the arara bell pattern, there are three different modulations that I learned from Spiro, I'll just write the most complex one:"

|xx*|xx*|x*x|x*x|x*x|*xx|*xx|*x*|- Arrara bell
|x*x|**x|*x*|x**|-Clave (6/8)

Sorry David, I guess I wasn't clear. The bottom line is the 6/8 bell lined up with the Arara bell. It seems that the Ewe bell is EXACTLY the same.Pretty cool. I still have a hard time relating the clave to the bell pattern in the arara/ewe music.
PC

[pcastag]

What about Mozambique? Comparsa?
Again, we think of them as having a two-three clave bell. Are we thinking of the "one" as your "three"? Did I learn everything wrong?

The Cubans begin clave on the three-side in mozambique and comparsa too. But like you say, those bell parts do enter on the two-side. I wouldn’t say you learned everything wrong, not by any means. Don’t worry. I know where you are coming from. You have learned from a variety of sources. I’m suggesting that you sort out the sources and contexts and refine your understanding of clave. Try hearing all clave-based folkloric music from the three-side for thirty days, no obligation and your money back if not fully satisfied.
-David

Not necessarily, many comparsas begin on the 2 side. Just think of how we're used to hearing the bell, or the step! Listen to top percussion, there's a comparsa on there that Clearly begins on the two side.


XOXO|XXOX|OXXO|XOXO- Bell
OOXO|XOOO|XOOX|OOXO- Clave



Edited By pcastag on 1140061595

[pcastag]

||XoX||oXX|oXo|XoX|| standard pattern
||1+a|2+a|3+a|4+a|| four main beats w/ subdivisions

I think what you may be referring to is a common variation of the standard pattern which contains the identical sequence of strokes and rests, but is in a different order and therefore in a different relation to the main beats.

||XoX||oXo|XXo|XoX|| variation of standard pattern
||1+a|2+a|3+a|4+a|| four main beats w/ subdivisions
-David

Hi David,
We call the top version - "Short" bell, and the bottom one "long" bell.

Generally, short bell for Cuban 6/8 rhythms, and long bell for Haitian 6/8 patterns - like Djuba.

Question: On Francisco Aguebella's "Cantos A Los Orichas", are they mixing short bell and arara bell on several of the songs?
What I'm calling "Arara" bell:
[oXX-oXX-oXo-XoX]

I don't think that's the arara bell. That is a mutation of the standard 6/8 bell that is now commonly played for guiros in Cuba. It has become almost more prevalent than it's predecessor.
PC

[pcastag]

Do you think of Iyesa as 2/3?

It's in clave, and has parts that follow clave just like guaguanco and timba salsa etc. I think we can look at certain songs as being in 2-3 clave or 3/2 if we use the beginning chorus as our frame of reference for where the song begins.
PC



Edited By pcastag on 1140061716

[pcastag]

I think that Afro-Cuban music went through another metamorphisis when Machito's band began to interact with U.S, Jazz musicians, who came from a cultural region DEVOID of time line patterns. Again, Kubik addressed some of this in Africa and the Blues in his chapter. "A Strange Absence." This alone dilineates one of the MAJOR differences between African- American music and that of the Caribbean and Brasil. Other than the later assimilation of Cuban clave and Brasilian samba time lines, the music of the US doesn't display this uniquely African musical trait.

I disagree, New Orleans music has a distinct clave ( second line) although not as formal as the Cuban Clave, Plus if you listen to funk music and follow the guitar parts on ANY james brown tune you will FIND THE CLAVE. Not straight clave, but a rhythmic patttern that fits the concept of clave.I guarantee it. It's almost a universal thems

[pcastag]

Do you think of Iyesa as 2/3?

Hi Windhorse,
Iyesa is neither in 3-2 nor 2-3. The rhythm iyesa does not have a particular clave sequence, neither does guaguanco, bembe, or any other African, or African-based rhythm I've encountered. Now, there are 3-2 and 2-3 songs in iyesa, guaguanco and bembe, but the percussion does not have a designated clave sequence, other than the "one" is the first stroke of the three-side. You are not the only one who has applied the 3-2, 2-3 concept inacurrately to rhythms.

There is a rhythmic phenomena that's worth mentioning though, because it leads many people to percieve iyesa as a "2-3 rhythm". In African rhythm there is a phenomena I call "beat motifs". These are rhythmic motifs based on main beats. For example, there's the "one-beat motif": if you hear one main beat emphasized in 6/8 music, most likely it's beat one:

||Xoo|ooo|ooo|ooo|| one-beat motif in 6/8
||XoX|oXo|oXo|Xoo|| clave
||1+a|2+a|3+a|4+a|| beats w/ pulses

You hear this in palo, bembe, chachalokuafun, etc.

There is an interesting rhythmic motif found in makuta, yuka and iyesa where there's a one-beat motif on the opposite side of the clave. This "4/4 one-beat motif" has been adapted into guaguanco, conga de comparsa and salsa. In fact, it's one of the main determinites of where clave is in salsa. If you hear one main beat emphasized in 4/4 Cuban music, most likely it's main beat three:

||oooo|oooo|Xooo|oooo|| 4/4 one-beat motif
||XooX|ooXo|ooXo|Xooo|| clave
||1e+a|2e+a|3e+a|4e+a|| main beats w/ pulses

When we hear the low drum play on a main beat, we automatically interpret that beat as "one". In iyesa however, it's really beat three. I've see dancers do a little involuntary shuffle when the bata drums shift from chachalokuafun (low drum on 1) to iyesa (low drum on 3), because they want to put their right foot on the "boom" of the low drum. It's where they want to feel "one". I almost always have to work with dancers so they will maintain their feet consistantly with clave ("it's OK to put your left foot with the low drum").

This 4/4 one-beat motif is one of the reasons so many people mistakenly perceive guaguanco as a "2-3 rhythm". The segundo is on beat three, not beat one.

In 6/8 you commonly find a two-beat motif and a three-beat motif:

||Xoo|ooo|ooo|Xoo|| two-beat motif
||Xoo|ooo|Xoo|Xoo|| three-beat motif
||XoX|oXo|oXo|Xoo|| clave
||1+a|2+a|3+a|4+a|| beats w/ pulses

The two-beat and three-beat motifs are common rhythmic motifs found in the vocabulary of lead drum parts for bembe, chachalokuafun and palo. They are also common motifs found in the itotele and iya bata enu melodies, as well as Northwest African djun djun parts.

Please don't hesitate to ask if you need some clarification. I realize that my posts may induce a coma.
-David

Liten to the Iyeas on top percussion, you will definitely find a distinct 2-3 pattern ( or 3-2 if you wish to reverse it) with the drums AND the bells following it.
XOXO|XXOO|XXOO|XXOO- Bell
OOXO|XOOO|XOOX|OOXO_ CLAVE

In addition the lead drum plays a part that follows clave, and concides almost exactly with what many people consider to be the quinto "ride" on the three side of guaguanco. If you will allow I will try to write it with tomes underneath
XOOO|OOXO|OXXX|OXXX- simplistic version of caja part
o s mmm ooo
OOXO|XOOO|XOOX|OOXO- Clave

This is what Michael Spiro explaines to me as being evidence if the Iyesa influence in guaguanco. Many people will use the 3 muffs on the 3 side as a sort of Ride for the quinto, especially when playing Guanguanco on three drums by one's self.
PC

[davidpenalosa]

Not necessarily, many comparsas begin on the 2 side. Just think of how we're used to hearing the bell, or the step! Listen to top percussion, there's a comparsa on there that Clearly begins on the two side.

XOXO|XXOX|OXXO|XOXO- Bell
OOXO|XOOO|XOOX|OOXO- Clave

Hi PC,
The bell clearly begins on the three-side (00:10) in "Conga Alegre", the comparsa you mentioned (from "Top Percussion"). The bell plays the first two strokes of clave before playing the regular part you wrote in your post.

|XOOX|OOXO|OOXO|XOOO|- clave timeline
|XOOX|OOOO|XOXO|XXOX|OXXO|XOXO- bell entering

Do you have "Congas de mi Cuba" by Los Papines? The first parts enter on the three side. If you have the Regino Jimenez instructional CD, rumba clave enters 3-2 and the bell enters 2-3. I like Congo no. 6 from Orquesta Ritmo Oriental's "Historica de la ritmo". It's just percussion, recorded very well and you can hear all the parts clearly. The piece begins with rumba clave, entering on the three-side. That's the way all the Cubans I've heard play this rhythm do it. There's usually been a fair amount of 6/8 mixed in the feel too. I've never heard a Cuban begin the clave pattern in 2-3 for comparsa, or any other folkloric rhythm.

I like how the various parts enter in mozambique.

|XooX|oooX|ooXo|Xooo| clave
|oooX|ooXo|XXXo|oooX| two-drum conga part
|oooo|oooo|XoXo|XoXX|oXXX|XoXX| bell
|1e+a|2e+a|3e+a|4e+a|1e+a|2e+a|3e+a|4e+a| main beats

The clave begins on beat one. The two-drum conga part enters on primary bombo and the bell enters on the two-side (beat three).

I can totally relate to feeling conga de comparsa as a "2-3 rhythm". It's an old familar feeling going back a long ways for me. Since I first came into direct contact with Cuban musicians, I've had to work at retraining my ear to hear the rhythm IN CLAVE, like the way I have to relate to those mozambique parts entering on opposite sides of clave.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1140070300

[davidpenalosa]

I think that Afro-Cuban music went through another metamorphisis when Machito's band began to interact with U.S, Jazz musicians, who came from a cultural region DEVOID of time line patterns. Again, Kubik addressed some of this in Africa and the Blues in his chapter. "A Strange Absence." This alone dilineates one of the MAJOR differences between African- American music and that of the Caribbean and Brasil. Other than the later assimilation of Cuban clave and Brasilian samba time lines, the music of the US doesn't display this uniquely African musical trait.

I disagree, New Orleans music has a distinct clave ( second line) although not as formal as the Cuban Clave, Plus if you listen to funk music and follow the guitar parts on ANY james brown tune you will FIND THE CLAVE. Not straight clave, but a rhythmic patttern that fits the concept of clave.I guarantee it. It's almost a universal thems

Hey Berimbau and PC,
I find this is a very interesting topic. Through the popularity of the Cuban Habanera in the 1800's, the tresillo figure (first half of son clave) was a common rhythmic motif in North American music, particularly ragtime and early jazz. I don't feel confident that I know if the full, two-sided clave pattern was long dormant in Afro-American music, or if it entered North America in the 20th Century from Cuba via the Port of New Orleans.

Regardless of how "son clave" became a common rhythmic motif in African American music, its function has been very limited compared to Cuban music. Most African and African-based rhythms I’ve encountered have an essential four-part rhythmic counterpoint. In African American music I hear the clave pattern as a central rhythmic figure, but without those other essential contrapuntal elements. As far as I can tell, the "clave motif" in African American music is unique. I agree that the US doesn't display the uniquely African musical trait of timelines. Even with its use of the clave pattern, African American music contains only that single fragment of the African musical STRUCTURE. For that reason, I don’t consider second-line music or James Brown tunes to be true clave-based music.

The main rhythmic structure of US popular music today centers on the backbeat. Carlos Santana once said that in order to make Cuban rhythms accessible to Americans, you needed to add the backbeat. A lot of North American music with the clave pattern is a matter of a clave motif being superimposed over the backbeat structure. On the other hand, I hear a lot of timba with the backbeat superimposed over the clave structure.
-David

[davidpenalosa]

PC:
"I will attempt to write the arara bell pattern, there are three different modulations that I learned from Spiro, I'll just write the most complex one:"

|xx*|xx*|x*x|x*x|x*x|*xx|*xx|*x*|- Arrara bell
|x*x|**x|*x*|x**|-Clave (6/8)

Sorry David, I guess I wasn't clear. The bottom line is the 6/8 bell lined up with the Arara bell. It seems that the Ewe bell is EXACTLY the same.Pretty cool. I still have a hard time relating the clave to the bell pattern in the arara/ewe music.
PC

PC,
Thanks, I was confused and transcribed it wrong. I thought it was a trippy variation of the Arara bell pattern. I've encountered a few. This is one I'm actualy familar with. I believe I have now represented it correctly below. I show the standard 6/8 bell pattern below the Arara bell.

|xx*|xx*|x*x|x*x|x*x|*xx|*xx|*x*| Arrara bell
|x*x|*xx|*x*|x*x|x*x|*xx|*x*|x*x| standard pattern

The Arara bell spans eight main beats, which you show bracketed with | |. The strokes of the two bells are identical for three of those beats.

I used to begin the Arara bell in its second half. You can see below that both bells are identical in the first half of the standard pattern. When I first learned this Arara bell I percieved it as a wacky variation of the standard pattern. It does share strokes with the standard pattern.

Arara bell
|x*x|*xx|*xx|*x*|
|xx*|xx*|x*x|x*x|

standard pattern
|x*x|*xx|*x*|x*x|

It took me awhile to realize that it was the exact same pattern as the crazy Ewe kadodo bell I encountered years before. I will definitely concede that the Arara bell part is abstract. It's a great example of cross-rhythm. I don't know if my comparison to the standard bell works for you, but that's how I've related to it.
-David

[Berimbau]

David & PC,
I DID notice that the bembe wheels site DID use the unfortunate terminology of long and short bell, I thought that this was perhaps rhythmweb's OWN sin. But alas, it is now all too apparent why Mr. Harding chooses NOT to share anything else of his research with me!!
Now PC, we are all quite aware that second line, and other music in NOLA employs a son clave. My friend Ned Sublette makes much of this in his tome "Cuba & it's Music." No doubt he will expand on this in his next project, which is slated to be a book on the history of music in NOLA. I got a preveiw of some his material at a lecture he gave in NOLA at last summer's Satchfest, just before Katrina hit.
I tend to agree with David on the tresillo, and think that this motiff is what Gottshalk and other composers were actually employing in their works. This was the "Latin tinge" that Jelly Roll Morton spoke of, as well as the "Spanish beat" used in early NOLA blues drumming that Baby Dodds referenced in his as told to book.
But I do remain unconvinced that clave was really that big a a factor in the development of Jazz. I think that most of the influence of clave in US popular music is a decidedly post-WWII phenomena, including in NOLA. The mambo "craze" of the 1950's is what stimulated much of the urban adaptation of clave here in the US. Trust me, you DON"T hear it in the traditional music of rural Mississippi or Louisiana, places where many of the early jazzmen hailed from, and a region where I've been doing fieldwork forever!
Early recordings of a LOT of Mardis Gras are NOT in clave! I think that Professor Longhair and a few other New Orleans R & B artists were really MOST responsible for the NOLA penchant for clave. Now when I DO hear clave played in modern NOLA music, the clave is usually the central rhythmic figure without the contrapuntal elements that David referenced in his post. I would have to say much the same regarding James Brown and other funk players of the 60's and 70's. If you find it there, it will be greatly simplified and undoubtably learned from a recording.
According to Dizzy Gillespie, who would know such things, "Our music in the United States and that of the African concept of rhythm have one difference - the African is polyrhythmic and we are monorhythmic. It is just recently that we (in the US) have begun to understand that that rhythm is not just 'one' (rhythmic line), but can be as many as six or seven lines of rhythm combined. This quote is from "Dizzy: The Life and Times of John Birks Gillespie" by Donald L. Maggin, published in 2005.
Again there are important socio-cultural reasons why the music of the US does NOT employ the asymetrical time line patterns. Gerhard Kubik has written a marvelous book, "Africa and the Blues," that details ALL of this in the chapter, "A Strange Absence."



Saludos,




Berimbau

[Charangaman]

I hate to stumble clumsily into such an erudite and scholarly disscussion but I have been fascinated reading this topic...

Regarding New Orleans, where would a record like the Dixie Cups - "Iko Iko" - fit in with the clave debate?.. I can really hear Son clave in this record..

[pcastag]

Early recordings of a LOT of Mardis Gras are NOT in clave! I think that Professor Longhair and a few other New Orleans R & B artists were really MOST responsible for the NOLA penchant for clave. Now when I DO hear clave played in modern NOLA music, the clave is usually the central rhythmic figure without the contrapuntal elements that David referenced in his post. I would have to say much the same regarding James Brown and other funk players of the 60's and 70's. If you find it there, it will be greatly simplified and undoubtably learned from a recording.

I'm not saying that they play clave, just that the rhythmic sensibility of clave is there. just like in a piano montuno you don't hear clave, but you can follow whether or not it is a 2-3 or 3-2 clave. What I'm saying is that the spirit of clave is there, understated, just like they were saying in cuba it was always there, but never really delineated until these musicians came to the US.
PC