Standard ("6/8") Bell Pattern - analysis of bell patterns

[davidpenalosa]

Berimbau,
Do you know if those musicologists transcribed what they saw live in Haiti, or from tapes?
-David

[pcastag]

Just a quick note about the transcriptions before I retire to my movie, "Casino Royale." My friend Harold Courlander was primarily a folklorist, so most of his transcriptions were done by musicologists. That is where the trouble lies.....



Saludos,



Berimbau

Awesome movie!! I love the part where woodie throws the exploding cigarette hops over the fence and says," sol ong suckers!"
PC

[Zeno]

I wanted you to interpret the notation of the ogan part in the example called 206 Nago Drums (91-A) for the standard notation to see if you agreed with my interpretation of it as

(4/4) |0x0xxx0xx0xx|

Check out how the musicologist decided to make the notation with the quarter+half with the triplet sign underneath, then followed by two more quarter notes. I thought it was a trip, what do you think? What are other ways you have seen to notate the same kind of thing with SN? Is avoidance of using rests in notation a convention? Why didn't they think it awkward to make that kind of notation? Who did they think would read it? etc. The problem as I see it with combining that triplet notation with the other quarter notes is a lack of a common denominator (pulse). Did they expect you would think triple pulse for part of a measure then duple pulse for the rest. Maybe they chose 4/4 because they did hear the main beats, but didn't understand the pulse structure......

I mention in my previous post that all the tapes he made in Haiti are in an archive and I mention the name of the man who did the transcriptions from the recordings, this is discussed in the chapter which introduces all those transcriptions.

I think it is fun as well as instructive to attempt to see what they were doing or thought they were doing. If anything, this confusion should inspire the new approach you have been working with in order to fix the mess. In fact you could site these classic confusions and mistakes to make your case and show how you would fix it and clarify.

Zeno



Edited By Zeno on 1141370648

[davidpenalosa]

I wanted you to interpret the notation of the ogan part in the example called 206 Nago Drums (91-A) for the standard notation to see if you agreed with my interpretation of it as
(4/4) |0x0xxx0xx0xx|

What are other ways you have seen to notate the same kind of thing with SN? Is avoidance of using rests in notation a convention?

..If anything, this confusion should inspire the new approach you have been working with in order to fix the mess. In fact you could site these classic confusions and mistakes to make your case and show how you would fix it and clarify.

Hi Zeno,
I forgot you mentioned the tapes and person who transacribed the music. I agree with your interpretation of the ogan pattern:

|0x0x0x|x0x0xx| clave
|0x0xxx|0xx0xx| ogan pattern

It's easier to write it here in triple pulse structure. There are many ways ethnomusicologists have written African-based rhythm. A lot of them are very goofy. Anthony King, one of the most important ethnomusicologists in the field of African music (his work is still studied in Universities) wrote the standard pattern in a measure of 7/8 with a measure of 5/8!! This is again a case of incorrectly interpreting divisive rhythm as additive rhythm. As late as 1980 ethnomusicologist Robert Kaufman presented King's crazy transcriptions of the standard pattern and this misinformation is passed along at institutions of higher learning to this day.

While some scholars have gotten it right, their work has not been codified as the correct way. Still, I feel that others have already "fixed the mess" as you say, at least in regards the to triple pulse structure ("6/8").

"Principles of Offbeat Timing and Cross-Rhythm in Southern Ewe Dance Drumming" by David Locke (Society for Ethnomusicology, 1982), "Foundation Course in African Dance-Drumming" by C.K. Ladzekpo (1995) http://www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/~ladzekpo/Foundation.html
and "The Three-Over-Two Relationship as the Foundation of Timelines in West African Musics" by Dr. Eugene Novotney (1998) incontrovertibly established the basic beat scheme of African music. Novotney painstakingly dealt with these classic confusions and mistakes to make his case. It makes a facinating story, like the search for the Holy Grail.

The task I've taken on is pointing out the correlation between the triple pulse structure ("6/8") and the duple pulse structure (4/4). The structure of the 4/4 popular music is obscured by the popular method of notation where most musicians count eight beats (quarter-notes) within a single cycle of clave.

Your support is always appreciated.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1141423934

[zaragemca]

David,and Berimbau,I have been following this thread and there are some misconceptions,I don't have authorization to talk about the meaning of the 'Corus' of phrase in the Yorubas Music,(which I would only discuss with people within the religion but),the Mozambique,and Carnaval parameters are based on a different clave pattern that the Guaguanco,also I have a question,...from where you guys think that Mario Bauza took the approach in placing the musical phrase,(arrengement/harmony), in relation to the Clave?,becouse he was not the first one,neither Machito,(without failing to recognize the musical knowlege of Mario Bauza which was classical trained,and the great sonero which 'Machito' was) Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1142534680

[Berimbau]

Z -
I don't think that anyone posting here thinks that Mario Bauza was the first musician to compose his music "in clave." At least I hope not. However, it does seem that he WAS the FIRST to articulate the CONCEPT of clave by WRITING either 2/3 or 3/2 clave on his band charts. As untenable as it might seem, this is the first EVIDENCE we have of the intellectual CONCEPT of clave. Of course it had been an intregal part of the actual music making process for nearly a century, but NO ONE had articulated it until Bauza. At least this tale has been the conventional wisdom in Cuban musical history thus far. Now if you have any evidence contrary to this, please DO post it. I, for one, would NOT be surprised to find an earlier reference to clave.


Saludos,




Berimbau

[zaragemca]

First of all saludos to both of you,it is really praised by me the interest which both of you have taken in study the the development of the cuban music,and the literary way that both of you develop in espressing those musical terms..In reality there was the same straggle in relation to the harmony and the incorporation of the 'Clave' before...First becouse those subjects,(Clave and harmony), didn't develop parallel,the Clave come from the Coros de Claves which are the grandfather of the Guaguanco and are development of the Occidente,(La Habana)...,the harmony which was used for the development of the Son is coming from the Charangas Francesas,later Tipicas Charangas which is a development of the Oriente...When this Orquestras were trying to incorporate what at that time was the third/movement in the Danzon,(which was the harmonic structuration used for the Son), they didn't have any problem since it was written in 2/4 time signature,(which was the normal at that time even in the Marching Bands),but then when trying to incorporate the Clave,there was structural problem becouse it didn't mach the 2/4 TS, so they tryed different ways 3/2,2/3,etc.,confronting situations which the arrengement..They didn't have authority to change the metric of the 2/4 time signature which is of western origin,and they didn't want to loose the chromatic articulation provided by the Clave,so they did something which was in their dominion...THEY MOVED THE PARAMETER OF THE MUSICAL PHRASE,..and the magic of the cuban/music started,now the bass instead of marking the original 1,2,3, (three beats),it could be written in a syncopation pattern,and the harmonic pattern also could be place in relation to the first,or second part of the Clave,and that's how the magic of the cuban/music started..There are some recording of Matamoros with the cross/clave...In the Sextetos both Alfredo Bolona,(Sexteto Bolona),and Ignacio Pineiro,(Sexteto Nacional),incorporated that approach in the sextetos,(since both of them have musicians in their sextetos which understood the concept),Ignacio Pineiro went as far as changing the configuration of the lyrics,then everybody else would keep jumping in the trent....In relation of the Comparsas and Pello El Afrocan,(Not Clave),but the 'bells patterns' used to started the articulation of the multi/percussion riffs,was different,(there were not 2/3,or 3/2 Claves,neither in the rehearsals,or when playing in the Carnivals,(if it was any incorporation of the Claves in those groups it should have been after,(and I observed this development of the Carnivals and Rumbas for years until the Carnivals was suspended by the Government for sometime)....In the case of Pello,'Nico' his lead conguero would play an specific percussion riff with a single Clave stick in the side of his Tumbadora,(specially during the song 'Maria Caracoles),Nico's favorite song.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1142881367

[davidpenalosa]

Zaragemca,
Sorry, but I'm having a hard time understanding you. I think it's because English is not your first language. Statements like "THEY MOVED THE PARAMETER OF THE MUSICAL PHRASE" make me go "huh?". ??? Perhaps you could try again and make one focused point, using simple language? Thanks.
-David

[zaragemca]

Saludos welcome David, what I'm referring to is an approach which later Dizzy G. and 'Bird' Parker used to build the Bep Bop,...The musical phrase would not start in the one/beat,but from the second/beat,(odd/time beat),which create a confusion for those musicians which build their musical phrase using the first beat,(in a time signature),as metric,or starting point,(which was the normal 'PARAMETER' for building of the musical phrase).Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1142973286

[davidpenalosa]

Saludos welcome David, what I'm referring to is an approach which later Dizzy G. and 'Bird' Parker used to build the Bep Bop,...The musical phrase would not start in the one/beat,but from the second/beat,(odd/time beat),which create a confusion for those musicians which build their musical phrase using the first beat,(in a time signature),as metric,or starting point,(which was the normal 'PARAMETER' for building the musical phrase).Dr. Zaragemca

Zaragemca,
Thanks for clarifying. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Diz, Bird and other boppers employed the technique of not beginning phrases on beat 1. Is that right? I think you are not using the term "odd time" correctly though, as that was not a primary concern of be-boppers.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1142891744

[zaragemca]

David, I could use those terms but I'm trying to say it the way that anybody would understand,I was using the other terms right,(moving the parameters of the musical phrase), but it was confusing for you,so I'm trying now to explain it more easy don't bite me now .,but since the time I was taking percussion,(many,many moons ago),the description of the time signature 4/4,was.. on beat,(1,and 3),odd beat,(2 and 4),and syncopation,contra syncopation,but I'm not talking about oddmeter/time signature,like 5/4,7/4,etc.(Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1142907148

[davidpenalosa]

on beat,(1,and 3),odd beat,(2 and 4)

Zaragemca,
Sorry, I don't mean to "bite you". I understand that English is not your first language and it's just going to take a bit more clarification for me to correctly understand you.

We have "on-beats" and their opposite: "off-beats". We call beats 2 and 4 the "backbeat", which is where the snare hits in rock and funk music. Is that the beat scheme you are using? Or were you referring to off-beat phrases?

-David

[zaragemca]

Saludos David,what is called now backbeat,(2 and 4),used to be called odd/beat...In 1850's when the Marching Bands and Charangas Tipicas were writting the music, the time signature was 2/4, the first beat was on/beat,and the second beat was odd/beat,(contra golpe),later the 4/4 time signature started being used in these writing and it followed the same for the 1 and 3 and the same for the 2 and 4,but at that time there weren't many of the expression use today as,off/beat, 'backbeat', odd/meter time signature,etc.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1142971834

[ABAKUA]

You know, alot of confusion and misunderstanding between ustedes dos, could be cleared up si los dos se hablaran en español.
At least so David can clearly understand what Zara is explaining (in broken, not so clear english).

[davidpenalosa]

pardona me
no habla español
-David