Zaragemca's breif on Jazz Music

[congamyk]

David, all musical forms have had "some" musical influences on others. Each music stems from something previously played before. But it's disingenuous to say that Cuba had a hand in the formation of jazz.

Your single reference to a "tresillo" that may or may not have been played in a jelly roll morton song is no proof. I'm sure you could find a riff in his music that sounded similiar to something heard in a German polka or a waltz. That doesn't make Polka was a forerunner of jazz! Early jazz was emulating alot of things, from Africa to Europe, from Gospel and blues to classical, but Cuba wasn't one of them.

I'm a fan of Cuba. I believe that Cuba and Brazil have had an amazing influence on modern jazz, but not the early development of jazz, it's just not there. The examples in this thread don't hold water, they are little more than speculation.



Edited By congamyk on 1182224768

[taikonoatama]

Article from Wikipedia on The Spanish Tinge:

The phrase Spanish Tinge is a reference to the belief that a Latin American touch offers a reliable method of spicing the more conventional 4/4 rhythms commonly used in jazz and pop music. The phrase is a quotation from Jelly Roll Morton. In his Library of Congress recordings, after referencing the influence of his own French Creole culture in his music, he noted the Spanish presence:

"Then we had Spanish people there. I heard a lot of Spanish tunes. I tried to play them in correct tempo, but I personally didn't believe they were perfected in the tempos. Now take "La Paloma", which I transformed in New Orleans style. You leave the left hand just the same. The difference comes in the right hand -- in the syncopation, which gives it an entirely different color that really changes the color from red to blue.

Now in one of my earliest tunes, "New Orleans Blues", you can notice the Spanish tinge. In fact, if you can't manage to put tinges of Spanish in your tunes, you will never be able to get the right seasoning, I call it, for jazz."

It is important to point out that what Morton described as a "Spanish" influence did not refer to cultural elements coming specifically from Spain. What he was calling "Spanish" was in fact an Afro-Caribbean influence. "Spanish" in those days was a generic term for describing anything that came from a Spanish-speaking culture. The musicians he came in contact with did speak Spanish but their culture was from the Spanish-speaking Caribbean islands (Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, etc), not Spain. To illustrate the inaccuracy of using the term "Spanish tinge", it would be like describing popular music born in the US (like Delta Blues, Rockabilly, Bluegrass, or Hip Hip) as having an "English tinge" merely because the lyrics were sung in English.

Specifically, Morton categorized his compositions in three groups as blues, stomps, and Spanish Tinge, for those with habanera rhythms.[1]. These included in "New Orleans Blues", "La Paloma", "The Crave", and "The Spanish Tinge".

Morton called attention to the habanera in "St. Louis Blues" as one of the elements in the song's success.

Morton's maxim, usually given now as "You've got to have that Spanish Tinge", has proven to be apt for many artists to this day. Latin rhythm instruments are employed by artists of all sorts and many compositions are express applications of the Spanish Tinge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Tinge


More:
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=9632



Edited By taikonoatama on 1182231256

[davidpenalosa]

Congamyk:
“The examples in this thread don't hold water, they are little more than speculation.”

Me:
I am not addressing (or supporting) any aspect of Zaragenca’s rambling posts, but rather your statement that “Cuba had nothing to do with the development of jazz.” Later you say that “early jazz was emulating a lot of things” and yet you are asserting that one of the most popular musical genres of that time, the habanera, had no influence. The fact is that early jazz musicians played habaneras. The habanera was a genre that fused European and African musical elements decades before the birth of jazz and it was therefore, a naturally adaptive genre for ragtime and early jazz.

Congamyk:
“Your single reference to a "tresillo" that may or may not have been played in a jelly roll morton song is no proof.

Me:
It’s not a matter of "tresillo that may or may not have been played in a jelly Roll Morton song”. The use of tresillo by Morton and his belief in its importance is well documented. In Ned Sublet’s book “Cuba and its Music” (pg. 326) he quotes Morton:
“Now in one of my earliest tunes ‘New Orleans Blues’, you can notice the Spanish tinge. In fact, if you can’t manage to put tinges of Spanish in your tunes, you will never be able to get the right seasoning, I call it, for jazz”.

Sublet (pg. 327):
“The contradanza-danza-habanera-danzon complex had infused into the birth of ragtime.”

The same goes for “St. Louis Blues”; it’s not something people falsely imagine that they are hearing. It’s a fact that the habanera influenced early jazz and other North American music of that time. The popularity of the habanera-influenced tango also spread the use of the tresillo as a rhythmic motif. That is well documented and is not a matter speculation. The rhythmic motifs tresillo and cinquillo have been used in North American music for over a Century. In fact, its influence is still found in contemporary North American music.

If you are not buying what I’m saying here, then may I suggest that you download “St. Louis Blues”, “New Orleans Blues” or compositions by Louis Moreau Gottschalk from an on-line source like itunes. Listen for yourself and tell me what you think.

I could understand it if you said that the Cuban influence in early jazz was negligible, but it’s not true that it’s non-existent. I’m not saying that the habanera or any other Cuban genre was a forerunner of jazz! I’m only saying that it was one of the early influences.

Compared to the Afro-Cuban and Brazilian influences that were adapted into jazz in the 40’s and 50’s, the use of tresillo may seem trivial. I’m not addressing its importance, but simply the fact of its existence in early jazz.
-David

[Mike]

Hi everybody!
Although I hate quoting wikipedia because it sometimes a highly unreliable source of web information, I´d like to bring in the term ACCULTURATION.

Acculturation comprehends those phenomena which result when groups of individuals having different cultures come into continuous first-hand contact, with subsequent changes in the original culture patterns of either or both groups.

That is exactly what happened in the "creation" process of many musical styles, be it jazz, flamenco, Latin music etc.

And the BASIC THING about acculturation is that the musical styles are very hard to trace back EXACTLY to one root. It´s more like an exchange of ideas. Sometimes there is a craze, a fashion, a whim of individual composers even.
Take a European example: In Baroque music in general you often find the flamenco formula, a descending terachord, e.g. d-c-Bb-a (cf. Bach famous Toccata and Fugue d minor for organ!!) What I want to say is NOT that Bach was a Spaniard but all over Europe there has been constant musical exchange over centuries.
The same applies to JAZZ in the USA I suppose.
To me me it´s neither right to say NO, tresillo or YES tresillo WAS X or Y - the answer lies in the middle.

The further you get back in history, the more difficult things turns out to be if you´re after scientifically proved information. There is no such thing at times - although researchers do a fantastic job.

Have I dipped the contrasting views in enough mellow water of compromise now? :laugh:


Just my 2 €-cents.



Edited By Mike on 1182260021

[ozrivera]

Saludos Hermanos

Tito Puente book

http://www.amazon.com/Tito-Puentes-Drumming-Mambo-King/dp/0634019562

This book has a lot of similar information as posted by DR Z. on the music evolution of both Cuba, and the US and its relation. lots of good information

God Bless

Oz

[zaragenca]

Welcome Congamik,as I said before it is all related to knowing some details,there is somebody which sabotage my posting here in the Houston Comunity College.Dr. Zaragemca

[Mike]

WHAT THE HECK IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN; DR Z?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[zaragenca]

I did the proper response to the subject my computer was hacked, and they removed what I did write,(it is not the first time neither I have to deal with this for some time already),that's what i mean.Dr. Zaragemca

[congamyk]

Wikipedia is a joke, not a valid source. Anyone can write anything they want as a contributor so it's biased.

It is important to point out that what Morton described as a "Spanish" influence did not refer to cultural elements coming specifically from Spain. What he was calling "Spanish" was in fact an Afro-Caribbean influence. "Spanish" in those days was a generic term for describing anything that came from a Spanish-speaking culture. The musicians he came in contact with did speak Spanish but their culture was from the Spanish-speaking Caribbean islands (Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, etc), not Spain. To illustrate the inaccuracy of using the term "Spanish tinge", it would be like describing popular music born in the US (like Delta Blues, Rockabilly, Bluegrass, or Hip Hip) as having an "English tinge" merely because the lyrics were sung in English.

I hear this all of the time. People from the islands completely discount Spain and European Spanish influence in everything. This is really careless. Without European Spain there would be NO rumba as we know it today. There would be NO Latin Jazz as we know it today. All of these influences go hand-in-hand. Without each piece of the puzzle it would not have happened. In fact, without European chords and melody there would be NO jazz PERIOD. All music comes from other forms. Europe invented the tuning, chords and note system (C @ 440#) of music used today in jazz and every other form of western music. Does that mean it's all European???

So Jelly Roll Morton used a habenera, he didn't invent jazz anyway. It was all ragtime and dixieland back then anyhow. Jazz has constantly evolved and will continue to evolve. I won't strive the point any longer but this attitude that evrything came from Cuba is stupid to me. Actually, very little has come from Cuba as far as inventions, technology, manufacturing, etc but I enjoy what has come from there.

[ozrivera]

Saludos Hermanos

Rumba is not and never was of european influence. rumba is strictly an african influenced music.
SON, on the other hand does have european influence.
sorry Mike, didnt mean join the bandwagon, but i had to correct that one.

OZ

[davidpenalosa]

Congamyk:
“This attitude that evrything came from Cuba is stupid to me”

me:
Congamyk, if you think I am saying “everything came from Cuba”, then you have clearly mis-read my posts. How about a little less attitude and a little more discourse?

Ozrivera:
“Rumba is not and never was of european influence.”

Me:
Ozrivera, I think you forgot the fact that the lyrics are in the Spanish (a European) language, with the occasional use of African words.
-David

[taikonoatama]

People from the islands completely discount Spain and European Spanish influence in everything.

Cuba had nothing to do with the development of jazz.

No one is discounting European influence here - obviously it was huge, starting with the instruments and things you mentioned (tuning, chords, and notation). What we're discounting is your dogmatic position that Cuba had absolutely nothing to do with the development of jazz.

These facts are incontrovertible:

- The habanera developed in Cuba in the 1800's, an amalgamation of Haitian (French), Spanish, and African rhythmic influences - it was extremely popular and spread around the world.
- New Orleans is relatively close to Cuba and the Caribbean, and a major trade/port city - the traffic in terms of goods, people and culture between these regions was considerable.
- People involved in the music scene in New Orleans heard the habanera and liked it enough to incorporate some components into the music they were developing in the late 19th and early 20th century (ref. ragtime and Jelly Roll Morton's well-documented quote regarding the "Spanish tinge" along with numerous recorded examples by a wide range of musicians clearly showing this influence).
- Ragtime, along with European marching band music (and its funeral procession offshoot), blues, and other forms, formed the building blocks of jazz.
- The Spanish tinge (Cuban and Spanish Caribbean influence) can be heard in many jazz recordings from the very formative teens and into the more developed 1920's and beyond.

Was it the biggest influence? Of course not. Nobody is saying it was. Its relative influence is certainly debatable. But that's a long way from saying there was zero influence; the facts just do not support that position.

>Congamyk:
>So Jelly Roll Morton used a habenera, he didn't invent jazz anyway. It was all ragtime and dixieland back then anyhow.

Nobody is saying Jelly Roll Morton invented jazz - no one person did, of course. He was, however, along with his Spanish-tinged/Cuban-influenced playing, a pivotal player in ONE of jazz's major foundational precursors: ragtime.

And that last statement about dixieland ... clearly a little reading on the history of jazz is in order here.

~Taiko



Edited By taikonoatama on 1182383596

[congamyk]

Saludos Hermanos

Rumba is not and never was of european influence. rumba is strictly an african influenced music.
SON, on the other hand does have european influence.
sorry Mike, didnt mean join the bandwagon, but i had to correct that one.

OZ

So rumba has no Spanish words/lyrics?
I disagree - I hear rumba in Spanish all the time. It DOES have Spanish influence.

So you're also saying rumba has no Spanish flamenco influence in some of the the dance movements?

I see many Spanish influences in rumba.

Much of rumba is sung in Spanish and has some influence in it's dancing from European influnces. In it's origination it is African but see many changes have taken place and rumba itself has evolved. Like all music it accepts other influences.

[congamyk]

Look it's not a big deal to me if you believe Cuba had anything to do with the origin of jazz, it's just that people that know jazz, play jazz and have studied jazz would laugh at you.

I am a pro jazz musician, I have studied the great jazz musicians, thier influences and the evolution and history of jazz. Jazz is uniquely American in it's inception - to say otherwise is foolish and laughable. You cannot use one example of an obscure riff (habanera) used by one jazz musician as some kind of influence on the origination of jazz to prove a point. That's as silly as saying a musician wore a Cuban hat once or twice so Cubans must have influenced jazz.

One riff does not make an influence. Especially with jazz - a constantly changing art form that constantly uses riffs from all kinds of genres and draws from all music sources - wether it's classical, polka, blues, bluegrass, folk, gospel, Latin, Brazilian, reggae or even pop music.



Edited By congamyk on 1182401343

[congamyk]

And that last statement about dixieland ... clearly a little reading on the history of jazz is in order here.

~Taiko

Get serious, do you even know jazz? The origin of jazz IS dixieland in New Orleans. Later came ragtime.

The mainstream jazz sound we think of today as jazz didn't come along until WAY after Jelly Roll Morton or even Louis Armstrong! You don't know jack sh## if you say otherwise. They were still using a banjo for rhythm and a tuba for the bass back then!

Modern jazz as we know it today developed in Kansas City with the introduction of the sax as the main reed instrument (replacing the clarinet and coronet used in New Orleans). Also the swing element developed in KC changed the rhythm. The Bass Viola replaced the tuba (New Orleans used the tuba for bass). The sound of jazz changed completely. This is what we think of as modern jazz. Prior to that it was all dixieland and ragtime blues down in New Orleans.

I'll teach you if you're willing to think.



Edited By congamyk on 1182401924