Zaragemca's breif on Jazz Music

[Diceman]

Whoa, hold on pilgrims!!

I think we are all assuming that music develops in isolated bubbles which is an easy way of thinking, but it travels in the same way that language travels and evolves and influences.
As a European, it is part of our history that we travelled and took our culture and other cultures around the world and the musical influences that came with them, and brought them back. American imported all its music apart from what was there when the pilgrim fathers arrived.
As a musician, I have ears and consciously/sub consciously use what ever I hear when I play, and I think it is the same with all musicians from way back. Before radio and recordings, the transferance of musical ideas had to be through travelling, but since then, who knows who has been listening to what?
The Darwinian principle of-if it dont work it dies off-applies in this case. Has anyone ever heard of Greensleeves Vaya! or Oye Como Jolly Well Va? Point proven.
This is also one case where 20/20 hindsight doesnt necessarily work, and attempting to divine how we got the music we have now, involves a lot of speculation.
I think this discussion is now getting a little personal between the brothers, and agreeing to differ may be the best way forward.
Suave
Diceman

[Mike]

Yo Diceman, you are right.
To throw in the brainy word acculturation again, some of the conga brethren are under the illusion that

music develops in isolated bubbles

as Diceman says.
Zero points for that notion!!! Every single musical style makes you laugh at such an idea.

Like Diceman I don´t feel like contributing to this topic anymore either makes much more sense any longer.



Edited By Mike on 1182421068

[congamyk]

Music does start somewhere... and then goes somewhere else from there. I think that there is definitely credence in the fact that music does "incubate" awhile in places and develops a certain "sound" before someone else hears it and puts a new "spin" on it and a new style is created. This is human nature, we are social beings and tend to congregate our cultural influences together.

New Orleans - Dixieland Jazz (1900)
Saint Louis - Ragtime (1920's)
Kansas City - Jazz Swing (1920-1930's)
Memphis - Blues to Rock-N-Roll (1950's)
New York - Bebop (1950's)
Detroit - Motown (1960's)
San Francisco - Psychedelic (1960's-1970's)
New York - Latin Jazz (1960's-1970's)
Seattle - Grunge (1990's)


There is a pattern here and i could cite hundreds of other cities/regions where musical genres incubated and a certain "sound" was created.

Jazz (especially), because of it's improvisational foundation is as organic as it gets, drawing from every musical resource imaginable.



Edited By congamyk on 1182433009

[congamyk]

American imported all its music apart from what was there when the pilgrim fathers arrived.

Not sure what you mean by this Dice. Maybe you can clarify? Yes, the founding fathers didn't develop a new musical genre but many immigrants that came after that did. The only music the founding fathers would have "imported" would have been European classical and later many poor immigrants that settled Appalachia were influenced by folk music from the UK, mostly Irish.

America has developed it's own unique major musical art forms.

Gospel
Blues
Jazz
Bluegrass
R&B
Rock
Rap
Hip Hop



Edited By congamyk on 1182433664

[ozrivera]

Ozrivera:
“Rumba is not and never was of european influence.”

Me:
Ozrivera, I think you forgot the fact that the lyrics are in the Spanish (a European) language, with the occasional use of African words.
-David

Much of rumba is sung in Spanish and has some influence in it's dancing from European influnces. In it's origination it is African but see many changes have taken place and rumba itself has evolved. Like all music it accepts other influences.
Congamyk

Saludos Hermanos

Guys i dont disagree with you but on the same token there is a level of disagreement.
Lyrics and dance can be added to any type of style of music without changing the music itself.
I would completely agree if you had to change parts of the music to match the style of singing of a particular language or style of dancing.
for example:
if i sing arabic to rumba, does that make it arabic influenced? or if i dance Samba to rumba does it make it brazilian influenced.
in my opinion NO. its just a rumba sang in arabic or a rumba danced in samba. (these are just examples and it applies to any language or dance, do not bash me for these examples add your own language or dance if it makes you feel better) ???
the fact that rumba is sang in spanish doesnt neccesarly make it European influenced. if that were the case then all afro-cuban music that is sang in spanish or danced with some type of flamenco dance step would be of European influence.
however, i do agree that the lyrics and Dance on the Rumba as we know it today have european parts.
i didnt take the lyrics and dance into consideration.
my statement was based on information that i have read.
again like the diceman said, there too many gray areas, that are now open to speculation. and very difficult to have an accurate assestment. particularly when there's biased opinion's based on where someone is from or geographical location.
at the end of the day where still the same people. and the music is still the same. hope that no one gets offended.

God bless

OZ

[Diceman]

Congamyk
[/quote]New Orleans - Dixieland Jazz (1900)
Saint Louis - Ragtime (1920's)
Kansas City - Jazz Swing (1920-1930's)
Memphis - Blues to Rock-N-Roll (1950's)
New York - Bebop (1950's)
Detroit - Motown (1960's)
San Francisco - Psychedelic (1960's-1970's)
New York - Latin Jazz (1960's-1970's)
Seattle - Grunge (1990's)[quote]

The above is obviously successful in Darwinian terms, but they were influenced by other music and just got to point in popularity where it was worth giving it an identifiable name. Although there is an arguement that smart marketeers will invent a name first.

The 'imported' comment was just making the point that music in the US was limited (and unknown) until migrants arrived bringing their own musical cultures which gave us what we have today, and we dont need boats to do that now.
Your second list will find its roots in other parts of the world, but that is what music is all about, no language or cultural barriers

suave
Diceman

[GuruPimpi]

Guys!

We are talking influences here... Roots of influence goes way back...
Drumming in shamanisms of all the world developed in all continents individually and mainly indenpendantly, but the fact is, that all the shamanisms developed their own way of achieving shamans 'exctasy'; trance; a different state of mind.

Later continents got connected by boats and today even through i-net; Todays music and music of industrial era (last 200 years and so) is influenced by the cultures of Colonials and colonised cultures and of course people's talent.

Trying to convince anyone how jazz music is straight from 'america' is, sorry, just too 'american'!

Music is language of the people of the world! The beautty of music is, that has a life and body of its own!

PimpS

ps: Yes, the ancestors of todays cuban people did have an influence to classical european music...


PimpS

[Quinto Governor II]

Holy cow there is some seriously flawed information (misinformation) in this thread.

Jazz music comes in many different subgenres and Latin (Cuban, Afro-Cuban, etc) is one of them. So is Brazilian, Bossa Nova and other forms. But Cuban influence and thier contribution to jazz were NOWHERE around when mainstream jazz was being formed and developed.

Cuba had nothing to do with the development of jazz. From Dixieland in New Orleans (1900) to swing in Kansas City (1920's), Chicago (1940's) and Detroit (1940's) to NY in the 1950's when Charlie Parker moved from Kansas City to NY and collaborated with Dizzy Gillespie to form bebop.
It was purely a black American art form in it's conception and development. Cuba had nothing to do with that. Sure there were a few conga players here and there in the 50's and 60's but they were only sidemen. Chano Pazo's collaboration with Dizzy was the only real influence on mainstream jazz. Cubans and Cuban music was not influential in the development of mainstream jazz.

What's next? Are you going to say Cubans invented classical music in Europe? Did Cubans invent rock and roll too?

Hey, Congamyk,

Your putting us on right? If not, your argument begs the point for me as to what ones definition of jazz is. Your first argument was against Cuban influence on mainstream jazz, whatever that is. Then, you categorically imply that Cubans had no influence on jazz music until Chano and Dizzy. I always thought that the caribbean and particularly Cuban influence was widely excepted. I thought the documentation was on the books for the intermingling of cultures in New Orleans. Maybe I'm wrong, but your saying it does not exist does not change my opinion. I'm no musicologist, but off the top of my head, ragtime is the beginning of what I consider to be jazz. Looking at it from a cultural viewpoint I'm relating it to the attitude of the people I grew up with. Many Black folk just have to do things a little different then one might expect, and with a bit of flamboyance. As in the way nany of us walk and talk. Cubans are the most extreme example of this they take every bodies stuff and make it their own. You listen to the many forms of Cuban music, and you hear a little of every culture's stuff in there. I don't know much technically about music to say definitively that Cubans influenced jazz or not, but in my soul I certainly believe they did. One other point concerning music forms that developed here. I believe its understood that Gospel had its precedence in what is referred to as negro spirituals which had its precedence in what is called ring shouts and field hollers.

[congamyk]

What "jazz is" now was not the thread topic. The thread topic was about the "origin" of jazz and that's what my posts were discussing. I love Cuban music as much as anybody but I'm not going to pretend it had anything to do with jazz just because one musician referenced a "Spanish tinge" riff he played in some of his music.

Gospel, blues and minstrel music were the influences of jazz in New Orleans at the turn of the century.

You're entitled to think that Cubans had some influence on jazz but it's a dream. Feel free to dream all you want.

What's next? Cubans invented the Internet?



Edited By congamyk on 1182481272

[davidpenalosa]

Hey, let’s get serious here! Everyone knows that the internet was invented in Kansas City.

On a related matter, Ned Sublet is coming out with a book soon about New Orleans, which will include further documentation on the musical exchanges between that port city and Cuba at the turn of the 20th Century. Stay tuned.
-David

[Quinto Governor II]

Congamyk,
I think secular music, most notable jazz was more of an influence on gospel, than gospel influencing jazz. Also, I believe it has already been established than there was more going on than just one musician playing a Cuban tune. Just as those Latin and American musicians were listening to and playing with each other in New York, the same had already taken place earlier in New Orleans, and that is simply influence enough for me. Can you deny the allure of the Latin melody and the African rhythm? Surely when American musicians heard these sounds they internalised them, and it is reflected in the music. Finally, what jazz is, is a crucial part of the discussion. I tried to convey what I think jazz is, so as to keep my opinion in a certain context. I was not sure what exactly you meant when you began by using the term "mainstream jazz" , and then went on to talk about no Cuban influence in the development of jazz. I see now that David has posted a reference, which references some already existing documentation. Some of which Dr. Z and others, I think, have already posted in this thread and previous ones. So, like david said "stay tuned" And, by all means stay in tune! (>:

[congamyk]

Congamyk,
I think secular music, most notable jazz was more of an influence on gospel, than gospel influencing jazz.

The exact opposite is the case. Almost all jazz musicians in the early stages of jazz grew up in the church and harken back to gospel music as thier original influence and roots. Nearly all pianists grew up playing and learning in church in those days. Money was scarce and pianos were few and far between. Nearly every major jazz great and influence attributes gospel music as thier start. I could list hundreds that have publicly expressed this. If you read anything at all about jazz you would know this.

Also, I believe it has already been established than there was more going on than just one musician playing a Cuban tune.

Even Jelly Roll Morton grew up playing in church. If there was another musician or even more so what? There are hundreds of musicians that were forming the music known as jazz, not just Jelly Roll. He is one small piece and all he did was reference a "Spanish tinge" that came up from Mexico and was from Spain. How does that single reference make "Cuba" influencial? You can't build a thesis on an obscure reference like that.

Just as those Latin and American musicians were listening to and playing with each other in New York, the same had already taken place earlier in New Orleans, and that is simply influence enough for me.

Jazz didn't make it's way to New York for decades. How could the musicians you talk about in New York play jazz when they didn't know about it? Jazz didn't make it's way north for a few decades. Remember we are talking about the turn of the century. The few latin people in the US here had little to NO influence at all and anything new traveled slowly. Were any of these Latin musicians in New Orleans in 1905? No, there was no Latin influence in the early development of jazz. Just be satisfied that Latin jazz did take off with greats Like Chano and others decades later. Don't try to rewrite history.



Edited By congamyk on 1182619466

[Jongo]

Hi this is a minor point but according to an essay by Jack Stewart there were roughly nine thousand immigrants from Cuba in New Orleans in 1809. Now he does say that this was a group that had fled Haiti for Cuba stayed there for six years and then moved to New Orleans. He states that how much Cuban musical culture they brought is not readily apparent but that some of the immigrants apparently were musicians.

An excerpt from his article:

Between 1854, and 1862, New Orleans composer Louis Moreau Gottschalk (1829-1869) visited Cuba quite often. While there, he took a particular interest in Cuban music, and befriended many prominent Cuban musicians including composers Manuel Saumell Robreno (1817-1870), Nicolas Ruiz Espadero (1832-1890), and Ignacio Maria Cervantes (1847-1905).(xxxi) Gottschalk's own composition Ojos Criollos (Les yeux creoles) Danse Cubaine, published in 1860, is one of his most pleasing and popular pieces, and it has rhythms which are both Cuban and proto-ragtime, and is probably the best of his several "Cuban" pieces

[davidpenalosa]

Not to make too much out of it, but there WERE Cuban and other Hispanic musicians in 1905 New Orleans. Also, as I stated previously, early jazz bands had Habaneras in their repertoire. There’s plenty of literature out there on the subject for anyone interested in learning about this. So, rather than “re-write history”, let’s just LEARN history. With the Internet, on-line “bookstores” and local libraries no one needs to be ignorant of the Cuban- New Orleans connection.

Mulatto musicians in New Orleans had a different legal status than musicians with very dark skin. Some Mulatto musicians actually studied in Europe and returned to successful careers in NOLA. The opera houses employed many classically-trained Mulattos. One of the most popular genres at the time was the Habanera, so that music was a part of turn of the century New Orleans. When laws giving Mulattos the same legal status as “Blacks” were passed in New Orleans (1890), the resulting cultural, musical mixing gave birth to jazz. That mixing included the genres of blues, marching band music and to a lesser degree, the Habanera. As jazz moved up-river, away from New Orleans, the tresillo (perhaps the Habanera’s most significant contribution to jazz), became a less important motif.

Puerto Rican Juan Tizol’s pre-Afrocuban jazz composition “Caravan” (1937) is an example of how elements of the Habanera had become codified into jazz by the time of the swing era. However, it wasn’t until the Bauza/Machito and Gillespie/Pozo experiments in the 1940’s that jazz was wed to the entire clave matrix. I don’t mean to imply that any of the pre-40’s music could be called “Latin jazz” or “Afro-Cuban jazz”.

The following excerpt is taken from the liner notes of “The Cuban Danzón: Before There Was Jazz” - 1906 to 1929 Arhoolie CD 7032. You can find it at:
www.arhoolie.com/titles/7032c.shtml

“In 1905 (a year before the first of the recordings Paul Sarebresole (1875-1911) published a piece entitled Come Clean(xlix) that is similar in form to a Cuban danza. In this piece the second strain uses a habanera rhythm. Additionally, the first strain of this piece used the same final figure employed eighteen years later by King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band on its recordings of Snake Rag.(l) Although one is tempted to speculate on the circumstances of such a connection, what can actually be concluded by this example is that as early as 1905, at least some New Orleanians were mixing Cuban and proto-jazz motifs in the same piece, although in a different manner than done later.
Early New Orleans jazz musicians were aware of the Cuban sounds. Original Dixieland Jazz Band drummer Tony Sbarbaro was familiar with what he considered hot trumpet playing on early Cuban recordings. He described them as playing their native music with a dirty "mud" tone, and as having the feeling of a good jazz beat, although the only place they played "straight lead" tunes were in the big cities.(li) In a 1957 interview, Manuel Manetta notes that as a young musician in 1917, Louis Armstrong only knew three pieces, which he played constantly. In his demonstration of these, Manetta plays Wind and Grind, and a slow, un-named blues, and plays both with a habanera influence.(lii) Although it is hard to ascertain whether Manetta is illustrating his own interpretation or Armstrong's, the treatment apparently was a common style at the time since Baby Dodds noted that the "blues were played in New Orleans in the early days very, very slow, and not like today, but in a Spanish rhythm."(liii) Trombonist Emile Christian also uses a habanera bass line behind a cornet-clarinet duet on I Lost My Heart In Dixieland recorded by the Original Dixieland Jazz Band in 1920.(liv)
Pamela J. Smith's extensive analysis of Cuban influences on New Orleans music uses such pieces as Creepy Feeling, The Crave, and Spanish Swat, by Jelly Roll Morton, New Orleans Stomp, by Louis Armstrong and Lil Hardin, as recorded by King Oliver in 1923, Stock Yard Strut, as recorded by Freddie Keppard in 1926, Sweet Lorraine, as recored by Natty Dominique and Johnny Dodds in 1928, Panama, as recorded in 1922 by the Friars Society Orchestra, West Indies Blues as recorded by A. J. Piron in 1928 and Tampeekoe as recorded by the New Orleans Owls in 1928, to illustrate both the Cuban rhythms and how New Orleans jazz musicians modified them.(lv) The heavy use of such musical devices in New Orleans jazz was referred to by Jelly Roll Morton as the "Spanish tinge" and is sometimes called the "Latin tinge."(lvi) Smith, concludes that . . .
‘The Cuban contradanza, the danza, the danzon, and the habanera had distinct rhythms that affected early New Orleans jazz compositions. There were other musical styles in Cuba; the Cuban bolero, for example, was a very popular genre throughout Latin America. But it was the danza group--with its variant rhythms and dance forms, the Cuban contradanza containing the germinal rhythm universally popularized by the habanera, and the freedom of the guaracha and the danzon--that most readily translated to New Orleans jazz.(lvii)’

S. Frederick Starr comes to a similar conclusion when hailing Manuel Saumell as the absolute master of the contradanza and the

head of the geneaology of lyrical, syncopated music that extends through Gottschalk to a host of late-nineteenth-century Cuban masters and thence to Scott Joplin, Jelly Roll Morton, and other creators of American ragtime.(lviii)

In addition to music, Cuba and New Orleans both shared a cigar-making industry that not only used Cuban tobacco, but in New Orleans at least, employed a long list of jazz musicians and relatives of jazz musicians, and as mentioned earlier in the case of Manuel Mello there were similar interests in the sugar industry. Substantial Cuban connections with New Orleans continued from the 1930's to the early 1960's. Cuban musical acts came to New Orleans quite often and performed at both black and white music venues. Successful Creole-of-color businessmen often vacationed in Cuba where less significant racial boundaries existed. After Fidel Castro came into power, many Cubans with New Orleans connections relocated in the city.
However, there is generally a difference between the early music heard on these recordings and the vernacular music played in New Orleans at the same time which was loosely referred to by New Orleans musicians as ragtime. With ragtime, and its peculiar sub-category New Orleans ragtime, the syncopation is predominantly in the melody line, while the rhythm is a predominantly a straight march beat. Conversely, in most of the Cuban music on this record the melody line is a predominantly Spanish or Latin melody with a very syncopated, rhythmic accompaniment. (There are exceptions including #8 and # 17 of the recordings.)

….So what does this all prove, or show? It shows that New Orleans and Cuban vernacular musics at the turn of the century had many similar elements, but that the elements were utilized in different ways-producing finished products that were related but not the same. As both musics matured they borrowed additional elements from each other and for a while became more similar, specifically in the dance music of the late 1920's. However, later forms in both locations began to grow in different directions and the similarities began to diminish.”



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1182573576

[Jongo]

Thank you David. Excellent information that supports what you were saying.