Zaragemca's breif on Jazz Music

[taikonoatama]

And I might add that influence need not be limited to a concrete pattern or motif, such as the tresillo, or any particular tune. Feel is at least as important, though perhaps harder to trace.

Going back to the Jelly Roll Morton quote (yes, him again), his reference to the "Spanish tinge" and "right seasoning" is, to my mind, more about feel than anything. And one of the main aspects of Latin feel in this context is syncopation - an important component of what became jazz. I'm not saying syncopation was purely of Cuban origin here, I'm just saying that musicians at that time were well aware of the Cuban version of it, enjoyed it so much they used it themselves, and in fact acknowledged it as an integral part of the feel of their own music.

"If you can't manage to put tinges of Spanish in your tunes, you will never be able to get the right seasoning, I call it, for jazz."

~Taiko

[davidpenalosa]

You are very welcome Jongo.

I’d like to add that although the Gillespie/Pozo collaborations are historically significant, they were by no means a smooth fusion of jazz and Cuban ideas. If you listen closely to those late 40’s recordings, it almost sounds like the rhythm section is fighting with itself. The jazzers were not yet comfortable with the “even-eighth” feel, let alone clave, of the Cuban son-based genres.

With obvious exceptions (like Cal Tjader), this awkwardness is evident in a lot of Latin jazz all the way up to the 70’s. For example, listen to Stan Kenton’s 1956 rendition of “The Peanut Vendor” (“Kenton In Hi-Fi”, Stan Kenton Blue Note CD 98451, 1956, reissued 1992).

Many jazz musicians liked to dabble in Latin jazz, but few cared to study the fundamentals of Cuban music. A watered-down Habanera feel (tresillo) is definitely there, as well as bossa nova and jazz samba patterns. These elements were mixed up randomly, more out of ignorance, than because of some experimental vision. I have several Latin jazz records where the conguero is playing a straight-up Cuban tumbao, while the bass and drums play bossa nova or jazz samba.

I was late to discover the music of Machito (under the direction of Mario Bauza). If you listen to the 1949 version of “Tanga”, (“Cubop City, Machito and his Afro-Cubans” Tumbao CD 012, 1949, re-issued 1992), you hear a true melding of jazz and the son. Bauza carefully chose a mix jazz and Latin musicians for the band in order to pull off his vision of Afro-Cuban jazz.

It wasn’t until the next generation, when musicians grew up playing both jazz and salsa, that I hear a true fusion of jazz and the son. The Gonzalez brother’s 80’s recordings were landmarks in this way. A lot of the jazz coming from Cuba at this time, still sounds awkward to me. By the 90’s though, Chucho and other Cuban musicians were playing fully integrated Latin jazz. However, they still had a tendency to overplay IMHO. When I was in Cuba in ’97, some Cuban jazz bands sounded like jazz parodies; it seemed to be a contest of who could play the fastest, busiest or highest.

By the way, awhile back I posted a new thread about the Cuban influence in early rock and roll: “Cuban influence in early R&R and R&B; tresillo, clave and the guajeo's impact”.
-David

[davidpenalosa]

Taiko,
I think we have to be careful with the use of the term “feel”. Regrettably, I have already overused it in this thread. Typically “feel” is used to describe those musical elements, which are undefined, or indefinable. Unfortunately, the former is often mistakenly identified as the latter.

The most significant rhythmic feel of jazz is swing. The New Harvard Dictionary of Music calls swing “an intangible rhythmic momentum in jazz”, adding that “swing defies analysis; claims to its presence may inspire arguments”. The only specific description offered by this esteemed reference is the statement that “triplet subdivisions contrast with duple subdivisions”.

The contrasting of triple subdivisions with duple sub-divisions is suggestive of clave’s generating principle. The swing in jazz is the feel of sub-African music, without its overriding structure (clave).

I don’t think that the swing feel in jazz can be traced back to Cuban influences (not that you were making that claim). The swing feel common to jazz can be heard in Cuban folkloric music such as bata and to a much lesser extent rumba, but is nearly non-existent in the son. Aside from the cross-rhythmic fragment we call tresillo, I’m not sure we can really identify any syncopated elements that jazz borrowed from Cuban music.

Tresillo:
XooXooXo

-David

[taikonoatama]

Very much enjoyed your responses and the discourse.

I don’t think that the swing feel in jazz can be traced back to Cuban influences (not that you were making that claim).

I certainly was not. And, of course, swing and not syncopation is the dominant feel in (traditional) jazz - I did not mean to imply that I thought otherwise.

Maybe I'm off with my read of the Jelly Roll Morton quote - he's talking about feel (sorry) of some kind, no? What do you take his references to "right seasonings" and "tinge" to mean if not feel?

Also, he uses the plural "tunes" in "If you can't manage to put tinges of Spanish in your tunes, you will never be able to get the right seasoning, I call it, for jazz." He's not, of course, speaking of putting the tresillo in all tunes. So if not that, then what other than feel (sorry), and if not syncopation, then what? Not swing, obviously.

Regards,

~Taiko



Edited By taikonoatama on 1182548178

[davidpenalosa]

Taiko,
Good points. I see what you mean. Morton is talking more with lose slang, rather than with any kind of precise musical terminology. Therefore, we can only hypothesize on what he was exactly trying to say. To be sure, he is referring to his "right seasonings" and “Spanish Tinge” as a “feel”. Since he used the tresillo figure (borrowed from the Habanera), it has been assumed by authors (and I was easily convinced) that this is what he meant by “Spanish Tinge”. Tresillo can be considered a syncopated figure since two of its three strokes are off-beats. Tresillo provided a “feel” that was a significant departure from marching band and other US popular music of that time. However, this is conjecture, since he did not get more specific and you raise a good question. I don’t know what other motifs he may have considered to be part of this “tinge”, but I am open to suggestions.
-David

[pavloconga]

Hi David,
Thankyou very much for the latest posts. That is excellent information, and you have supplied good references to support your argument.
best regards
Pavlo



Edited By pavloconga on 1182554161

[congamyk]

I can see that I'm in the minority here but it doesn't bother me. I know there is a grotesque bias here towards anything Cuban.

There is alot of innuendo and no foundation to any of this thread. All we have so far is Jelly Roll Morton said he played a "Spanish Tinge" in a few of his songs and that an unknown, obscure composer Louis Moreau Gottschalk from New Orleans visited Cuba a few times. That's all so far, everything else is bunk.

If Cuba was so instrumental in the origin of jazz, why was there no clave in jazz recording up until Chano Ray and others decades later and even then like someone stated the musicians were uncomfortable?

Why don't any of the great jazz musicians like Louis Armstrong and others refer to Cuba?

[davidpenalosa]

congamyk,
Are you not reading my posts? Because your last message ignores my addressing of these issues you have raised. I realize that there other people here, who are offering their information and opinions, but I'm feeling a little bad, being ignored.
-David

[davidpenalosa]

Some more thoughts on “feels” and syncopation.

The most significant rhythmic motif of the Cuban contra-danza (and its variants, the habanera and tango) are the tresillo:

XooXooXo

…and two embellishments of tresillo, ritmo de tango:

XooXXoXo

and the cinquillo:

XoXXoXXo

Tresillo is most basic rhythmic cell in 4/4 African and Afro-Cuban music. Ritmo de tango combines tresillo with the backbeat. Tresillo and cinquillo are common bell parts in Africa and the music of the Diaspora. Cinquillo was used extensively in ragtime and before that, the music of Louis Moreau Gottschalk.

From:
www.enbreve.com/art10tp.html

“1840s - late 1890s - The danza style known as habanera and its variants are well established in the music of New Orleans..” end quote

According to the Ken Burns documentary “Jazz” (2000), ragtime and blues both entered New Orleans in the 1890’s and the earliest jazz was called “ragtime” (“Jazz” Vol 1).

John Santos:
www.kqed.org/arts/spark/education/lessonplans/503_santos.pdf

‘…the similarity between the habanera and ragtime syncopation. The “ritmo de tango” of the habanera was virtually identical to the African American “cakewalk” style of music and dance, and became a standard rhythmic feature in many popular songs at the turn of the century.’ end quote

The first music to be based on the complete clave pattern (tresillo, combined with its diametric opposite) was the Cuban danzon (1879). The danzon’s baqueteo pattern is an embellishment of what we now call the son clave pattern:

XooXooXo ooXoXooo clave

XoXXoXXo XoXoXoXo baqueteo

Cinquillo constitutes the three-side of the baqueteo pattern. Although some rags like “The Entertainer” clearly have full clave-like phrases, they are momentary figures within the composition. Clave as the governing rhythmic principle didn’t migrate from the danzon to ragtime or early jazz. Also, I am not aware of the use of cinquillo in early jazz.

However, tresillo and ritmo de tango became jazz staples. The use of tresillo and ritmo de tango in North American music such as jazz, traditional New Orleans second line music and early rock and roll typically involves the polymetric phenomena of superimposing swing (six subdivisions per main beat) over these 4/4 (four subdivisions per main beat) patterns. This seems to be an original American rhythmic sensibility. I haven’t found any direct African or Caribbean correlatives to this.

According to Wynton Marsalis (“Jazz” Vol. 1) Buddy Bolden was the first person to be recognized as a jazz musician. Buddy Bolden’s “big four” was the first syncopated departure from the straight on-the-beat bass drum emphasis of marches.

Buddy Bolden’s bass drum “big four”:
ooooXooo XooXXoXo

Notice how the second half of the “big four”’s bass drum is the ritmo de tango.

ritmo de tango:
XooXXoXo

In fact, the complete bass drum pattern of the “big four” makes for a straight-ahead 2-3 pattern.

I occasionally do some substitute teaching up at the local university. I did lectures and demonstrations on Cuban music for a couple of days in a World Music class. When I came into the classroom, I noticed a large picture of a tree with its roots showing. The roots, trunk and branches had significant jazz artists and jazz sub-genres written on them. Although I found the bossa nova branch, I was very disappointed (shocked actually) that Afro-Cuban jazz was not included. However, at the bottom, on one of the lowest, deepest roots was listed “Afro-Cuban musical elements”.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1182622619

[pavloconga]

Hi David,
Thanks for your recent posts. Again that's good information that strengthens your argument.

Though I've been following this discussion with interest, let me say I won't be entering into the debate as it's not an area in which I have much knowledge.

Congamyk, I for one simply have no interest one way or another whether Cuban music did or did not have an influence on the early development of jazz. However, I am interested in the facts of the matter and David has come up with some pretty good evidence and supplied some references to support his position.

I also want to say this: I'd like to think we're all friends here and I think we should be capable of discussing any relevant subject. And if we don't agree - I think we can at least be respectful, "agree to disagree" and keep it factual rather than personal, e.g. saying to a fellow CongaBoard member (and I quote): "No, you couldn't be more wrong. In fact, your comment shows a complete ignorance of both genres. Sorry but there's no other way to say it - you don't know sh** about either."

best regards and peace
Pavlo



Edited By pavloconga on 1182609908

[JohnnyConga]

Guys this forum is about SHARING knowledge....now if you don't agree with someone that is fine, but please let's be RESPECTFUL!.....Second......READ READ READ!.....Here it is in a quick nutshell

Cuba and New Orleans were "open" ports to each other going way back to at least 1803,and possibly earlier....with that said it is just "common sense' that musicians on "both ends" cross over to each others ports and bring their own brand of music with them, creating even then a "fusion' of styles....please remember also that the Spaniards(from Spain) brought their musicians to Cuba, the French(from France) brought their musicians to Cuba, also....their is the 400 year span of slavery involved also, where slaves(musicians) were all thrown together(from many parts of Africa and the Middle east) to create the "hybrid" form of Cuban music we have today....any takers??....READ Gentleman , before you put ur conga in your mouth. ...PS where is the Bias towards Cuban music???........"JC" Johnny Conga....of Cuban descent...

[congamyk]

Congamyk, I for one simply have no interest one way or another whether Cuban music did or did not have an influence on the early development of jazz. However, I am interested in the facts of the matter and David has come up with some pretty good evidence and supplied some references to support his position.

I also want to say this: I'd like to think we're all friends here and I think we should be capable of discussing any relevant subject. And if we don't agree - I think we can at least be respectful, "agree to disagree" and keep it factual rather than personal, e.g. saying to a fellow CongaBoard member (and I quote): "No, you couldn't be more wrong. In fact, your comment shows a complete ignorance of both genres. Sorry but there's no other way to say it - you don't know sh** about either."

best regards and peace
Pavlo

Pavlo, you're correct, my words there were too harsh.
I retract that and will edit the post.

However, when someone claims something so absurd - that jazz had more influence on gospel music than gospel on jazz - it is truely harmful to music knowledge and understanding.

Further, I agree that Spain, Cuba, New Orleans, etc. all shared traveling musicians and ideas. But it's facetious to say that Cuba had an influence on jazz. Did the musicians share ideas? Yes, but when viewing all of the influences that jazz music had in it's origin, Cuba had no influence in comparison to gospel, minstrel, folk, ragtime, etc.

So my summation is this;

1. information and discussion is a good thing as long as one looks at all of the information and has a comprehensive view of all of the influences of jazz

2. The "habenera" brought up from Mexico (according to the artcle) was used by Jelly Roll Morton in some of his music.

3. Cuba, New Orleans, etc. all shared traveling musicians and ideas and that jazz is a "gumbo" of musical ideas.



Edited By congamyk on 1182619298

[taikonoatama]

Jazz has almost countless influences, of course, and the breadth and depth depend to a degree on how one defines "influence." Maybe part of our issue here is with semantics.

influence: the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others

We've all (including congamyk) agreed that ideas were shared. People talked, listened to one another play, liked what they heard and here and there worked those ideas into their own music. Isn't that influence? And then they in turn influenced others and so on.

*Relative* influence is a whole other matter, but that is not really the core of the recent discussion here. No one here is saying that Cuban influence was greater than gospel, minstrel, folk, ragtime, blues, or anything else, necessarily. What is being said is simply that there was *some* influence. The fact that there was some (as clearly demonstrated by David's research, referenced sources, and knowledge) I find quite interesting completely outside any notion of its relative importance, and I've enjoyed learning more about it.



Edited By taikonoatama on 1182646250

[taikonoatama]

sorry, double-posted accidentally. please delete.



Edited By taikonoatama on 1182618893

[JohnnyConga]

Jazz is a musical art form that originated in New Orleans, Louisiana, United States around the start of the 20th century. Jazz uses improvisation, blue notes, swing, call and response, polyrhythms, and syncopation, and blends West African musical styles with Western music technique and theory.

this is the Wikepedia(encyclopedia)....answer..."JC" Johnny Conga...