Zaragemca's breif on Jazz Music

[GuruPimpi]

Lets keep the music universal language, who is and was a greatly influenced and shared through history. I totally see the sense in taikonatama, JC and David and Congamyk words. All together brings the picture of it clearer. Respect!

David; your knowledge and words show some of how deep and big is your Love towards music.
JC: I hope I'll get to have the opportunity to hear you live and talk to ya. Respect!

Congamyk: your words are provocative and I like the way this thread is driven by it. You gave a lot to this ' picture'. Respect!

My 2 cents after a nice gig!

p

[davidpenalosa]

Here's a timeline of some significant events in Cuban music, jazz and R&B. What is of particular interest to me is the history of two basic African-based patterns used in these musics: the single cell tresillo and the two-cell clave.

• 1803 – earliest known Cuban contradanza composition "San Pascual Bailón" First written music to use an African rhythmic motif (tresillo).

• 1836 – earliest published habanera “La Pimienta”, is written.
www.antillania.com/Cuba_Music_Timeline.htm:
“According to preeminent Cuban music historian Alejo Carpentier, the habanera was never called such by the people of Havana (for them it was just the local style of contradanza). It only adopted its present name when it became popular outside of Cuba.”

• 1860 - Inspired by the habanera and Caribbean music in general, New Orleans composer L.M. Gottschalk uses the tresillo figure in his “Night in the Tropics” and other compositions.

• 1874 - Georges Bizet uses the habanera in his opera “Carmen”

• 1879 – first written danzon ("Las alturas de Simpson”) This is the first written music to use clave as the governing rhythmic principle.

• 1896 – first written ragtime/cakewalk composition
www.class.uh.edu/mintz/places/music-webresources.html:
‘The "cakewalk" rhythm probably derived from the habanera.’

• 1896 (?) – Buddy Bolden’s band begins playing in New Orleans. from: www.redhotjazz.com/buddy.html
The “big four”, the first syncopated bass drum pattern to deviate from the standard on-the-beat march is credited to Bolden. from: Wynton Marsalis “Jazz” Vol 1. 2000
The “big four” contains the ritmo de tango, a rhythmic motif of the habanera and an embelishment of tresillo.

• 1915 - “Jelly Roll Blues” by Jelly Roll Morton is believed by many to be the first written jazz composition.

• 1917 - First jazz recording: “Livery Stable Blues” by Original Dixieland Jass Band (ODJB)

• 1925 – The son group Septeto Habanero records for RCA

• 1926 - Louis Armstrong makes the first recording under his own name.

• 1927 - Ignacio Piñeiro, leader of the Septeto Nacional, adds the trumpet to the son.

• 1933 Cuban musician Mario Bauzá joins the Chick Webb band as a trumpeter, where he’s thoroughly educated in the African-American artform. Webb told Bauzá that he “played with a Cuban accent” and personally tutored Bauzá in the subtleties of jazz phrasing.

• 1943 – Mario Bauza composes the first true Afro-Cuban jazz, Latin jazz composition “Tanga” for Machito and his Afro-Cubans in NYC. Jazz, the son and clave are wedded together for the first time.
According to author Max Salazar, the landmark piece began as a descarga (jam session), spontaneously created on-the-spot. - “The Beginning and Its Best" by Max Salazar, Latin Beat Magazine (February 1997 Vol. 7, No. 1)

• 1945 – R&B pioneer Johnny Otis hires the Miguelito Valdés rhythm section for an Afro-Cuban/R&B experiment on US Armed Forces Radio. This perhaps marks the beginning of a long use of Cuban instruments and musical motifs in R&B, R&R, soul, funk and hip-hop.

• 1947 - Bauzá introduces Dizzy Gillespie to Cuban conguero Chano Pozo initiating a brief but fruitful collaboration. Some of the famous tunes from the Gillespie/Pozo collaboration include "Cubana Be, Cubana Bop," "Tin Tin Deo" and "Manteca", all of which are jazz standards today.

• 1950-52 – New Orleans musician Dave Bartholomew uses tresillo as a fundamental motif in early proto-R&R pieces like “Country Boy”. Bartholomew identified Cuban tumbaos as the source of this motif.

• 1955 – Richard Berry takes the Cuban hit “El loco cha-cha-cha”, creates his own English lyrics and comes up with the R&R classic “Louie Louie”. This common son chord progression becomes a staple in R&R: “Hang on Sloopie”, “Wild Thing”, etc.



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1182712634

[bongosnotbombs]

Beautiful!

[zaragenca]

There are several thinhs which happened in between those dates but that is ok...I need to point out that a cuban pianist, (Rod Rodriguez), was playing with Jolly Roll Morton in 1929,later with Alberto Socarras in the 1930's and with, Louis Armstrong in the 1960's,(he has something to do with the ornamentation of jazz),also to use the fingers instead of the bow in the doble bass,was taken from the Orquestras Tipicas cubanas,(which recorded their music before any jazz band)....Dr.Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

Zaragemca,
My timeline was not in any way intended to be comprehensive. I intentionally omitted some events so as to not make it too cumbersome. I’m happy though, to hear from any forum members who have significant dates they wish to share.

I have three questions about your recent contribution.

1. Since Jelly Roll Morton was a pianist, in what context did Cuban pianist Rod Rodriguez play with him? It’s not common for a jazz band to use two pianists. Perhaps I misunderstood you?

2. Who was the musician that had something to do with the use the fingers instead of the bow in the double bass?

3. Are you saying that the pizzicato technique of playing double bass was transferred from Orquestras Tipicas to early jazz bands?

-David

[bongosnotbombs]

Pretty huge claims Dr.Z.



Edited By bongosnotbombs on 1182802009

[Quinto Governor II]

Congamyk,
I think secular music, most notable jazz was more of an influence on gospel, than gospel influencing jazz.

The exact opposite is the case. Almost all jazz musicians in the early stages of jazz grew up in the church and harken back to gospel music as thier original influence and roots. Nearly all pianists grew up playing and learning in church in those days. Money was scarce and pianos were few and far between. Nearly every major jazz great and influence attributes gospel music as thier start. I could list hundreds that have publicly expressed this. If you read anything at all about jazz you would know this.

Also, I believe it has already been established than there was more going on than just one musician playing a Cuban tune.

Even Jelly Roll Morton grew up playing in church. If there was another musician or even more so what? There are hundreds of musicians that were forming the music known as jazz, not just Jelly Roll. He is one small piece and all he did was reference a "Spanish tinge" that came up from Mexico and was from Spain. How does that single reference make "Cuba" influencial? You can't build a thesis on an obscure reference like that.

Just as those Latin and American musicians were listening to and playing with each other in New York, the same had already taken place earlier in New Orleans, and that is simply influence enough for me.

Jazz didn't make it's way to New York for decades. How could the musicians you talk about in New York play jazz when they didn't know about it? Jazz didn't make it's way north for a few decades. Remember we are talking about the turn of the century. The few latin people in the US here had little to NO influence at all and anything new traveled slowly. Were any of these Latin musicians in New Orleans in 1905? No, there was no Latin influence in the early development of jazz. Just be satisfied that Latin jazz did take off with greats Like Chano and others decades later. Don't try to rewrite history.

Hey Congamyk,

Here is a reference that supports my suspicion that secular music was more of an influence on gospel that gospel on jazz.

Thomas Dorsey, often called the father of gospel music, was greatly influenced by Rev. Tindley, Dorsey, or "Georgia Tom" as he was called when he was Ma Rainey's piano accompanist, began composing religious music in 1921 after becoming a member of the Pilgrim Baptist Church of Chicago. Having been deeply moved by the singing of one of Tindley's songs entitled "I Do, Don't You," he was overcome by a desire to write music that would similarly inspire others. The composer of over 400 songs which include "Precious Lord, Take My Hand," "We Will Meet Him In The Sweet Bye and Bye," and "When I've Done the Best I Can," he wrote free-swinging religious songs with driving rhythms and blues-like melodies which combined religious music with the popular style of the day. Over the years he inspired many gospel singers and was responsible for the organization and development of numerous gospel groups.

Though Dorsey retired from the world of the blues in 1929, this basic root material permeated everything that he later composed. "Blues is a part of me," he said, "the way I play piano, the way I write." "I was a blues singer, and I carried that with me into the gospel songs." "I started putting a little of the beat into gospel that we had in jazz. I also put in what we called the riff, or repetitive (rhythmic) phrase. These songs sold three times as fast as those that went straight along on the paper without riffs or repetition." Dorsey's lyrics were imbued with the hope of the Christian message and his music was gleaned from the entire black world around him. Many of his great successes became popular during the Great Depression. "I wrote to give them something to lift them out of that Depression," he stated. "They could sing at church but the singing had no life, no spirit...We intended gospel to strike a happy medium for the down-trodden. This music lifted people out of the muck and mire of poverty and loneliness, of being broke, and gave them some kind of hope anyway. Make it anything but good news, it ceases to be gospel."

[zaragenca]

Yes David,Jolly Roll Morton was talking about the' Hispanic Tinge',but it was not in reference to Spain but to the riff which Rod Rodriguez was bringing to the jazz,(and that's the resons he recruited him,(Rod),to play with him ,and he was so famoused that Albert Socarras,(another monster director),also recriuted him to play with him,and he was playing with alot of big/cats in jazz including Loius Arnstrong in the 60's......By 1850's(well before jazz),the Orquestras Tipicas were already using the technique into the cuban music and going around,,(including New Orleans),to do presentations.,(they find out that in would give more dynamic and powerful drive to the music)...Dr. Zaragemca