Cuban influence in early R&R and R&B - tresillo, clave and guajeo's impact

[Derbeno]

David, re the ancient rhythms it was a paper written by an African scholar whose research took him to Haiti. I am frantically trying to find the source and further details. In fact, my Haitians friends have a lot to say when Cuba is singled out ???

Re Curacao, we are small with a mere 130,000 people, the folkloric music is called Tambú and is generally played during end of year activities, out side this period permission to hold the gatherings is difficult to get. As things tend get too heated when the rum starts flowing. When I do go back and hear the drum and chapi (hoe) it still sends shivers through my body. It's played at a slow tempo when the women singers will settle a few score, gossip or political, then speeds up to a frenzy sending the dancers crazy before slowing down again and so forths. Like the vacuna women tease the men in a very overt sexual manner but touching is not allowed.

Here's an extract:
The Tambú
The tambú was not just a dance for the Afro-Curaçao people, as the colonial authorities, well-to-do whites, and Roman Catholic missionaries concluded. Nor was it merely ’simple public entertainment for relaxation and amusement’, as labelled by the colonial legislator. It was a way of life. Tambú was one expression of the folk belief of the black Curaçao slaves and also of the Afro-Curaçao workers and farm labourers of the lowest social class after the abolition of slavery in 1863. Tambú was an element of the complex of inter-related historical and religious Afro-American cults which grew up everywhere they were taken as a result of the massive forced emigration of Africans in the days of slavery and the slave trade. Comparable folk manifestations include the calinda of Trinidad, the winti of Surinam, the palo monte of Cuba, and the candomblé and macumba of Brazil. The music of the tambú was originally made on only two instruments: a single-skinned drum, the tambú , and an iron idiophone, the heru. Hand clapping (brasa) and stamping the heels are essential elements of tambú music. The drum is the central instrument. For so long as anyone can remember the drummer has been a man, while the singer has been a woman. Singing is regarded as one of the most important aspects of the tambú .

[davidpenalosa]

>Congamyk: “Blues, jazz, & R&B are uniquely American; from the United States of America exclusively. If any prior influence was to be subscribed, it would be 90% European. (played on European instruments, sang in European language, using European melody and chord system of music, etc)”

Me:
I think putting a percentage on it is quite difficult, since those American artforms are so thoroughly homogenized and uniquely different from their original European and African sources. I don’t know why you assert that the African contribution to African-American music is so small though. To be sure, European language, instruments and musical elements are paramount. However, the blues, swing and more subtle African elements have contributed to giving the various African-American musics their uniqueness. “It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that swing” (Duke Ellington, 1932).

>Congamyk:.... "complex African music"...
>I assume you are speaking of African music south of the Sahara and from the west coast of Africa - you should make that distinction.”

Me:
I was referring to your statement:
“The simplistic African music brought over by the slaves..”
You already made the distinction yourself.

>Congamyk: “Sub-Saharan African rhythms were unique, but no more complex than what was being played on dobro and bodrhan in Europe, darbuka, table or taiko around the rest of the world. The concept of rhythm in 3 and 6 had been around (and written extensively) in Europe and elsewhere centuries before the dispora.”

Me:
So now you admit that Sub-Saharan African rhythms are complex? I’m glad you corrected yourself. I couldn’t believe that you called them “simplistic”!

African cross-rhythm is more complex than a “concept of rhythm in 3 and 6”. There is no correlative in either the traditional music of Europe or Asia to the African rhythmic principle. This is not a competition between different ethnic musics, I’m just being clear about what makes African rhythm unique.

And by the way, please don't confuse my postings with those by Zaragenca or anyone else. I only speak for myself. You seem to be confused about who said what. Thanks.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1182985259

[davidpenalosa]

Derbeno:, “re the ancient rhythms it was a paper written by an African scholar whose research took him to Haiti. I am frantically trying to find the source and further details. In fact, my Haitians friends have a lot to say when Cuba is singled out.”

Derbeno,
Thanks for posting that information about Tambu. I really appreciate it. I would also be happy to read the research on Haitian music you mentioned. I don’t dispute that there are African correlatives to certain Haitian musics. I am aware of a few Nigerian-Cuban correlatives within the bata drums. It was specifically the idea of “rhythms from 100s of years ago”, that I took issue with. Since attempts to notate the rhythms in Africa and the Diaspora didn’t begin until the 20th Century, how could scholars know which rhythms survived from that long ago? I hope you can locate that source.

In regards to your Haitians friends, I know that this type of discussion can turn into some kind of “competition” between the music of Cuba, Brazil, Haiti, New Orleans, etc. I’m trying to stay away from that, but popular Haitian music just has not had the same global effect as popular Cuban music. You probably know though, that Haitian music did have a profound effect upon Cuban popular music (son and danzon) because of Haitian migration to Cuba. Also, in the eastern end of Cuba, there are pockets of “Haitianos” who speak French Creole and practice Vodu (Voodoo).
-David

[congamyk]

peace&bless!
dear gongamyk, while you accuse most people on this board to be obsessed with cuba and overemphasizing its contribution to major musical styles of the previous century, you seem to be obsessed with the centrality of the united states as you claim it originated more musical styles than anybody else.

I never claimed the "centrality" of the US did anything. I said that KC is in the center of the US.

I also didn't say the US "originated" more musical styles than anyone else. Perhaps you misunderstood, I said the United States is the most musically prolific country in the world. By that I mean our music (American) has had more influence on the world than any other single country's music. That would include Cuba, Brazil and anyone else. The whole world listens to music that originated here - blues, jazz, gospel, rock, R&B, country, etc.



Edited By congamyk on 1183000764

[congamyk]

Congamyk: “Sub-Saharan African rhythms were unique, but no more complex than what was being played on dobro and bodrhan in Europe, darbuka, table or taiko around the rest of the world. The concept of rhythm in 3 and 6 had been around (and written extensively) in Europe and elsewhere centuries before the dispora.”

Me:
So now you admit that Sub-Saharan African rhythms are complex? I’m glad you corrected yourself. I couldn’t believe that you called them “simplistic”!

David, please read what I said... I did not claim African rhythms were complex. I said they were unique and I compared them to other rhythms around the world and actually said:

"they were no more complex than what was being played on

Essentially the African rhythms were no more complex than those rhythms that exsted in other cultures around the world. Irish folk music and other European had very complex times signatures and complex rhythms as did Eastern Europe, the Middle East (Arabia) and India (tabla).

[congamyk]

African cross-rhythm is more complex than a “concept of rhythm in 3 and 6”. There is no correlative in either the traditional music of Europe or Asia to the African rhythmic principle. This is not a competition between different ethnic musics, I’m just being clear about what makes African rhythm unique.

I disagree. Many classical European pieces were written in obscure times signatures.
Classical, Irish, German and Eastern European folk music used 3 and 6 extensively.

The more I examine African clave and 3 & 6 rhythms I enjoy it. It is both fascinating and yet also very, very, simplistic. I think it has been perched on a pedastal so high (especially by westerners) that it's originators would laugh. Many professors, ethno-musicologists and left-leaning political nerds use it to promote thier skewered ideas of history and culture, and they worship at the alter of a very simplistic art form as though it's complex and sophisticated beyond other music. It's not complex.

Sub-Saharan African music is unique, but also is so simple one can teach children to play the most complex parts within days. The same cannot be said of classical, Brazilian, Arabic and other forms that are far more complex when considering chords, melodies and rhythm - they take years to learn to play.



Edited By congamyk on 1183002235

[davidpenalosa]

African rhythm simplistic? What African rhythms are you referring to? Could you name ONE African rhythm you consider simplistic? Yes, many rhythms have simple time-keeping parts, but have you ever learned a lead drum vocabulary? I don’t think anyone who has studied say, the Ewe (Ghanaian) atsimevu for example, would ever consider it simplistic. It takes years to master and not everyone can do it. The same goes for the iya bata and rumba quinto. You can teach “children to play the most complex parts within days”??!!

European pieces, Middle Eastern, Indian and other Asian musics in obscure time signatures are ADDITIVE RHYTHM (rhythm realized as the addition of groupings of two’s and three’s and their sums. It is, by nature, asymmetrical. It is not based on an equal and regular beat scheme with equal and regular subdivisions).

Irish, German and Eastern European folk musics that use 3 and 6 extensively are not cross-rhythmic like African music. Their beat schemes are simpler than those used in sub-Saharan African music. That is obvious to even the most casual of listeners.

African, Afro-Cuban, Afro-Brazilian, etc, musics are DIVISIVE RHYTHM (Rhythm which is realized as products of two’s and three’s and their multiples. It is, by nature, symmetrical. It is based on an equal and regular beat scheme with equal and regular subdivisions). Furthermore, many African, Afro-Cuban, Afro-Brazilian, etc, rhythms are POLY-METERIC (simultaneous and systematic subdividing of the main beats into triple and duple pulses).

Yoruba bata (divisive rhythm) and Indian tabla (additive rhythm) both play complex rhythms, but they are based upon fundamentally different rhythmic schemes. With the exception of Classical 20th Century music, European art music has traditionally emphasized harmony and melody over rhythm.

Anyone reading this who is interested in learning more about African cross-rhythm should check out Professor David Locke’s groundbreaking article:

• Principles of Off-Beat Timing and Cross-Rhythm in Southern Ewe Dance Drumming (David Locke, Journal of the Society for Ethnomusicology, November, 1982) http://webdb.iu.edu/sem/scripts/home.cfm

And/or check out Ewe master drummer C.K. Ladzekpo’s webpage:

• The Myth of Cross-Rhythm (C.K. Ladzekpo, 1995) www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/~ladzekpo/PrinciplesFr.html

-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1183044288

[congamyk]

the iya bata and rumba quinto. You can teach “children to play the most complex parts within days”??!!

I was referring to the basic rhythm patterns and individual parts, you are referring to the soloing aspect, which are patterns used together with improvisation. I agree that improvisation takes much longer to learn. Again my main point is (and you agreed) that the basic rhythms are simplistic and even a chaild could be taught to play them correctly within a few days.

The difference is in that Sub-Saharan African music has no focus on melody or harmony - since they had no musical system of notes, scales, chords etc. That is what makes it rhythmic based exclusively, thus simplistic.

[congamyk]

European pieces, Middle Eastern, Indian and other Asian musics in obscure time signatures are ADDITIVE RHYTHM (rhythm realized as the addition of groupings of two’s and three’s and their sums. It is, by nature, asymmetrical. It is not based on an equal and regular beat scheme with equal and regular subdivisions).

Irish, German and Eastern European folk musics that use 3 and 6 extensively are not cross-rhythmic like African music. Their beat schemes are simpler than those used in sub-Saharan African music. That is obvious to even the most casual of listeners.

African, Afro-Cuban, Afro-Brazilian, etc, musics are DIVISIVE RHYTHM (Rhythm which is realized as products of two’s and three’s and their multiples. It is, by nature, symmetrical. It is based on an equal and regular beat scheme with equal and regular subdivisions). Furthermore, many African, Afro-Cuban, Afro-Brazilian, etc, rhythms are POLY-METERIC (simultaneous and systematic subdividing of the main beats into triple and duple pulses).

Yoruba bata (divisive rhythm) and Indian tabla (additive rhythm) both play complex rhythms, but they are based upon fundamentally different rhythmic schemes. With the exception of Classical 20th Century music, European art music has traditionally emphasized harmony and melody over rhythm.

This is the same (boring) diatribe used again and again by leftists and mostly (non-musician) music nerds in an attempt to highten the complexity of sub-saharan African music. It's hogwash.

First of all, clave is symmetrical because it resolves. If it doesn't resolve, it doesn't groove, and clave grooves. It can be played in 3 or 4 but either way you play it - it still resolves in either one or the other.

1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 OR 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4

That's the bottom line. Clave is symmetrical. That is why 3 and 4 can be played against each other (3 X 4 =12) and it grooves.

(simultaneous and systematic subdividing of the main beats into triple and duple pulses).

The "POLY-METERIC" subdividing is a part of practically all musical forms anywhere. Europe has done it for centuries with classical and folk music as has nearly every other culture. It just wasn't all done on drums, which is your entire point. In Europe and other cultures it is done with melodic notes. Bata does this also - to me, bata is simply "notes" placed within a rhythm to form the rhythm and in the end becomes a melody. Every culture has "POLY-METERIC" concepts within melody. Thus it is not exclusive to Sub-Sahara Africa. In fact, one could say Africa had the most simplistic form of "POLY-METERIC" music, since it is played only on drums/percussion with fewer "notes" than other cultures have with melodic instruments with many notes, ie multiple chordal and melodic instruments.

Anyone who has ever sat down next to a bodrhan player, table player or vibraphonist will tell you European music has complex rhythms equally as complex as Sub-Saharan African rhythms. I urge you to do this.


The term additive rhythm is also often used to refer to what are also incorrectly called asymmetric rhythms and even irregular rhythms. For more information and to see why many people incorrectly call Sub-Saharan African music "asymmetric", when in fact it is NOT asymmetric at all because it RESOLVES naturally, refer to this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_rhythm



Edited By congamyk on 1183041373

[davidpenalosa]

Sub-Saharan music does indeed have a focus on melody, which is often set in a pentatonic mode. The vocal songs and drums melodies (surrogate speech) are based upon their tonal languages. African music and specifically its rhythm would not be what it is without the element of melody. It is not simply a matter of attack-points. Since they are often three-tone languages, the melodies are simpler than what one typically finds in European-based melodies though.

If you re-read my previous post you will see that I said African rhythm “is, by nature, symmetrical”. So, we are in agreement on that point.

Please cite one example of a non-African or African Diaspora music that exhibits the same polymetric structures.

I appreciate links to webpages that address these topics. It’s amusing that you linked to Wikipedia in your last message though, since you said that “Wikipedia is a joke, not a valid source.” (06/27/07) I guess it's only a joke when it presents facts that you find inconveniant, such as Jelly Roll Morton's use of Cuban rhythmic elements (Taikonoatama 06/19/07).

-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1183046529

[pavloconga]

hi congamyk,
I'm going to comment on a few things you've said:
congamyk (in response to David):
"I was referring to the basic rhythm patterns and individual parts, you are referring to the soloing aspect, which are patterns used together with improvisation. I agree that improvisation takes much longer to learn. Again my main point is (and you agreed) that the basic rhythms are simplistic and even a chaild could be taught to play them correctly within a few days."

Me:
The soloist playing in Sub Saharan West African rhythms is not neccessarily free to improvise (most often not at all). A soloist is usually playing precise and rhythmically complex patterns that takes years to learn and even more years to master.

The solo phrasing and patterns are integral to each rhythm. They cannot be conveniently excised just so the music fits your view of being "simplistic". One could (by playing devil's advocate) say the same thing about western music - just take away the soloist's roles or the more complex instrumental parts and you are left pretty much with... simple patterns that a child could learn within a few days.

congamyk:
"The more I examine African clave and 3 & 6 rhythms I enjoy it. It is both fascinating and yet also very, very, simplistic. I think it has been perched on a pedastal so high (especially by westerners) that it's originators would laugh. Many professors, ethno-musicologists and left-leaning political nerds use it to promote thier skewered ideas of history and culture, and they worship at the alter of a very simplistic art form as though it's complex and sophisticated beyond other music. It's not complex."

Me:
I would not say it's complex and sophisticated beyond other music. However it is complex.

It's my experience and my view after spending 6 months or so of my life (and I barely scratched the surface) living and studying in West Africa (Ghana, Ga and Ewe regions), that African music is just as complex, unique and sophisticated as possibly any music anywhere in the world. And no I am not talking about individual rhythms or children learning to play individual drum parts in a couple of days - I am talking about the music as a whole - which includes complex, sophisticated and precise interplay between drummers, dancers and singers.

I am not about making value judgements about who has "the best music", or "the most complex" music - I couldn't give a toss about that, I am just interested in the facts. Unless you've been there, experienced it first hand and immersed yourself in the culture and an in depth open minded study of the music I do not believe you are justified or qualified in making such sweeping generalisations.

cheers and regards
Pavlo



Edited By pavloconga on 1183044542

[davidpenalosa]

Pavloconga,
I of course agree with you and would just add that African lead drum vocabularies often consist of long, intricate and specific liturgical recitations in the language of the people (drum melody: surrogate speech). The improvisation is done within this context; maintaining the essential structure, while adding one’s own individual inventiveness. It’s anything but simple!
-David

[zaragenca]

I already did an article in relation of the complicity of the african music and how it was codified by the west..'Origin of the 6/8 pattern'....In relation to Brazil and Cuba I could say that military bands and later Orquestras Typicas have beenperforming in Brazil since 1824...A Great cuban violinist Jose White Lafitte which study and became teacher in France did and extensive tour in the U.S. and South America, he went to Brazil where he was appointed the director of The Imperial Conservatory of Music until Brazil got independency from Portugal,at that point he returned to France where he continued teaching and playing until his death in 1819....Also the BrazilianCarnival was always tracing the cuban Carnival which in the 1930's and 1940's and 1950's was the first Carnival in the world and Brazil was in second..It was after 1959,(for many reasons),that the Brazilian Carnival took the first place in the world...Dr. Zaragemca

[Derbeno]

I will be on travel for the next few days and will surely miss the next installment of this fascinating and interesting discussion......

Not sounding too corny or condescending but it is so refreshing to see such an in depth, passionate, articulate, yet respectful to each other's point of view debate.



Edited By Derbeno on 1183047284

[davidpenalosa]

>Congamyk: ‘bata is simply "notes" placed within a rhythm to form the rhythm and in the end becomes a melody.’

Me:
John Coltrane soloing on “Giant Steps” is simply "notes" placed within chords to form a melody.

Gosh, I never realized how simplistic all this music I love really is! I concede your point!
-David