Drum Circle Culture

[Derbeno]

I'm mightily surprised a selected few of them actually held themselves together despite the continued attempt of the guy on the clave to sabotage the whole thing, whilst the keyboard guy was launching scud missiles to the soft underbelly hehehe

Heyho,... at least the appear to be enjoying themselves. To each their own but definitely not my cup a tea.

[JohnnyConga]

What do u guys think about KALANI the guy running the circle..have u guys seen his background?....Just curious what u guys think...believe me I was a "drum facilitator"...it can be fun, but I'd rather do it with RUMBA!...."JC" Johnny Conga...

[pavloconga]

Hi guys,
Yes.... the trouble with drum circles is that most people think that's what drums and drumming are all about - people just sitting around bashing away out of time. In other words, I think they give drums and drummers a bad name.

The vids were very amusing! Sorry guys it sounded like one big and awful mess. It was worth watching though, just to see the guy munching away on the apple and playing with one hand! That was the highlight.

Having said that, I think they still can serve some purpose in that they can give people an easy intro to drums and a feeling they are contributing to the 'music'.
Yes, I too as a complete beginner played in quite a few, it's just not really my thing now.

I recently went to a couple of 'drum jams' that happen one night a month at a bar here. I find usually it's the same old thing: mostly djembes and a few congas being played as loud as possible with no conception that drums can be played as a melodic instrument. 3 or 4 people trying to solo over the top of each other etc.

JC Im sure the guy in the first vid is very good at what he does. The trouble is, IMO from this experience these kids probably will never know to what incredible levels the drum can be taken. If only they could see and experience say, a Cuban rumba folkloric group or a West African 12 piece percussion ensemble. A tight, powerful and fiery rhythm monster!

Pavlo



Edited By pavloconga on 1184569110

[bongosnotbombs]

Hey if you like it good for you but it disrespects the instrument and gives it a bad reputation. Many bands do not take the congas seriously because they see this monotonous, out of time crap being played without any understanding of music form. This is why many bands DON'T hire congueros and have a bias against auxillary percussion.

Aaawww c'mon man, lighten up!

The unpredictability is what makes it so much fun?

Disrespect the instrument? Well, if you want to feel that way..

The bottom line is this event is fun, it's loud, it's noisy and there are no
rules, anyone can play and the crowd is very appreciative. It's about the participation the music is almost a by-product.

Like I said, say what you want about the music, it is what it is, it's
not 4/4, 12/8 clave or anything. Sometimes it's on, sometimes it's not.
Lots of times it not even very good.



Edited By bongosnotbombs on 1184550026

[109-1176549166]

Hey bongo I got to tell you the so-called "rhythm" in that video sucks. Some guy eating an apple and playing at the same time...funny. And the rhythm misses constantly - the timing is OFF everywhere. Everyone of these guys is nothing but a hobby, non-serious musician. Listen to the keyboard player - he doesn't know what he's doing. It is missing the beat all over the place.

IMO it is disrespect to the drum we love. At 2:47 there is a guy playing the clave and he doesn't even know 3-2 or 2-3, he isn't even playing a steady 1-2-3-4 beat at all!. There is no foundation and it is constantly shifting. I could teach a 3rd grade class to play this junk in 2 weeks with fewer "misses" in it.

Hey if you like it good for you but it disrespects the instrument and gives it a bad reputation. Many bands do not take the congas seriously because they see this monotonous, out of time crap being played without any understanding of music form. This is why many bands DON'T hire congueros and have a bias against auxillary percussion.

Hi Congamyk,

With all due respect, there's no law against being a hobbyist or a non-serious musician. It's not a crime. Except for prodigies, the reality is that the rest of us started as fumbling beginners. And for many, it took many years to become really competent with one's instrument(s).

Furthermore, we may be better than others with a particular instrument, but the plain reality is that others are definitely better than us. We probably won't want them looking down on us with disdain either.

I fail to see the logical connection between drumming circles (or at least this particular drumming circle) and disrespect to congas and giving it a bad reputation. I guess all of us really have our relative definition of the word "sacred".

Neither do I see the logical connection between drumming circles and why many bands don't take congas seriously and why they don't hire congueros and have a bias against auxiliary percussion.

All of the world's instruments practically have mediocre, or, worse, bad players. Even each of the instruments in the many bands that you particularly mention have mediocre or bad players somewhere else. Following your line of reasoning, therefore, mediocre or bad players that play instruments found in those bands are likewise giving disrespect and a bad reputation to those instruments.

IMO, it's makes more sense to believe that the 2 of the most common reasons why many bands don't take congas seriously and/or don't hire congueros are: (1) the type of music they play doesn't require congas, and/or (2) it doesn't make economic sense for the band to add another head. For example, it's unthinkable for a salsa band not to have a conguero. But, for a rock & roll, R&B or Jazz band, a conguero may be only optional or even unecessary.

I think, in a way, we need to be thankful that the reality is that not everyone can be really good at a musical intrument. Otherwise, we would all be elite musicians. This is one of the main reasons why professional musicians (unfortunately, not all) can make a living out of their musical talent(s) and even become famous and wealthy. Can you imagine the overwhelming competition we'd have if everyone were really good?

On the up side, though, we'll all be making beautiful music! And I wouldn't mind that at all.

To end, I like to humbly quote the following lines from the well-known poem, "Desiderata" (Max Erhmann, 1920s):

"Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story...

"If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself...

"Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time...

"Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass...

"Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here...

"...And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul...

"With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

To sum up, my 2-cent keyword/phrase here are: "tolerance" and "live and let live".

Respectfully,



Edited By mjtuazon on 1184578240

[Charangaman]

Drum cirlces for me are an affront against the tradtions and origins of the Drum... It's not the fact that they can't play, it's the fact they aren't interested in learning..

Joe public see's these "happenings" and lumps all hand drummers into one catergory.. They call all drums bongo's and think we are primitive noisemakers...

The drum circle doesn't acknowledge the complexities of ensemble drumming, it is nothing better than children banging randomly on pots....

Why not just learn rumba parts and feel the true connection?

???

[jmdriscoll]

I would agree that yes.. these corporate drum circles tend to over simplify the instrument and take the magic out of it. It makes the general public think that yeah, these things are like toys. But with that said, isn't there a lot of things in the world like this? The world is full of stereotypes. Stereotypes are usually based on a lack of knowledge and a lot of assumption. Hey, so be it though... live and let live. I think that one of the major components to these circles is that they offer some sort of spiritual experience to people who have never played a drum before. They are seeking the meditative state that you can come to when playing the drums or any other instrument for that matter.. just maybe not at as deep of a level as people who practice regularly. So maybe they are playing for a different purpose which does not necessarily involve being crafty with an instrument and laying down a mean groove. Maybe these people like to play for all of the new age aspects that go along with the modern drum circle stigma. ehhh, so be it. Look at it this way... it is not an activity that promotes violence or negative energy, so life is good..ehh? This is not the path that I choose to take for many reasons, but I realize that it is not hurting anybody so I won't bash em.

MJ

[jmdriscoll]

[quote]What do u guys think about KALANI the guy running the circle..have u guys seen his background?....Just curious what u guys think...believe me I was a "drum facilitator"...it can be fun, but I'd rather do it with RUMBA!...."JC" Johnny Conga...[quote]


I have two of his videos. "Ultimate Conga Jam", and "Ultimate Bongo Jam". They are "ok" ??? . He does seem to have a credible background if you look at www.kalanimusic.com though. Maybe he see's $$$ in the circles? ???



Edited By jmdriscoll on 1184606275

[Garvin]

Kalani's stuff makes me sick to my stomach. Sorry, but every time I see someone play djembe with sticks I want to rip my hair out. It truly is a glorified therapy session and that's fine, but in the name of all that is holy why put it on video. It's like spreading ignorance just for "fun". Argh.... Sorry, I'm usually more open minded about these things and I probably would be to someones face if I knew they had no idea what they were doing, but those of us who have at least had some exposure to the traditional approaches know the agony of watching the facilitated "drum circle" in all of its bastardized glory.

Sorry, like I said I'm usually a little more laid back about it.

[congamyk]

Hi Congamyk,

With all due respect, there's no law against being a hobbyist or a non-serious musician. It's not a crime. Except for prodigies, the reality is that the rest of us started as fumbling beginners. And for many, it took many years to become really competent with one's instrument(s).

Furthermore, we may be better than others with a particular instrument, but the plain reality is that others are definitely better than us. We probably won't want them looking down on us with disdain either.

I fail to see the logical connection between drumming circles (or at least this particular drumming circle) and disrespect to congas and giving it a bad reputation. I guess all of us really have our relative definition of the word "sacred".

Neither do I see the logical connection between drumming circles and why many bands don't take congas seriously and why they don't hire congueros and have a bias against auxiliary percussion.

All of the world's instruments practically have mediocre, or, worse, bad players. Even each of the instruments in the many bands that you particularly mention have mediocre or bad players somewhere else. Following your line of reasoning, therefore, mediocre or bad players that play instruments found in those bands are likewise giving disrespect and a bad reputation to those instruments.

IMO, it's makes more sense to believe that the 2 of the most common reasons why many bands don't take congas seriously and/or don't hire congueros are: (1) the type of music they play doesn't require congas, and/or (2) it doesn't make economic sense for the band to add another head. For example, it's unthinkable for a salsa band not to have a conguero. But, for a rock & roll, R&B or Jazz band, a conguero may be only optional or even unecessary.

I think, in a way, we need to be thankful that the reality is that not everyone can be really good at a musical intrument. Otherwise, we would all be elite musicians. This is one of the main reasons why professional musicians (unfortunately, not all) can make a living out of their musical talent(s) and even become famous and wealthy. Can you imagine the overwhelming competition we'd have if everyone were really good?

On the up side, though, we'll all be making beautiful music! And I wouldn't mind that at all.

To end, I like to humbly quote the following lines from the well-known poem, "Desiderata" (Max Erhmann, 1920s):

"Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story...

"If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself...

"Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time...

"Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass...

"Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here...

"...And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul...

"With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

To sum up, my 2-cent keyword/phrase here are: "tolerance" and "live and let live".

Respectfully,

Hi Manny, you're correct, there's no law against it and I don't want to make it illegal. They can do what they want to. I'm simply voicing my opinion from experience.

Bad music? Hobbyists? Yeah they are everywhere!
Just turn on the TV or radio!

Competency is one thing, but those videos and my experience tell me that much of the drum circle approach has little regard for competency at all. And the videos clearly display a blatant disregard for rhythm in general. They aren't keeping time! It's one thing to be a hobbyist and another thing to have no respect for music at all. In my opinion much of the drum circle culture is the latter.

DISDAIN....
I only have disdain for someone that can't keep time, and someone who doesn't care to keep time yet plays a drum - the sound of which goes into my ear because it is loud and YET the tempo is OFF. It's OFF because they don't CARE.

Purpose of the drum......... keeping time.
If you're going to play a drum, keep time. If you can't keep time, stay in private and practice until you CAN KEEP TIME. If you practice for years and still can't keep time - throw the drum in the ocean or better yet, give it away to someone else.

As far as "someone being better than me"... of course there are always better players. This is how we LEARN.

KEY WORD: LEARN

I have to call you out here and say that the example you are using doesn't apply to me. I ACTUALLY LISTEN to those that are better than me, and I take advice and tips. I also study to "show myself approved" to those that have gone before me, have more experience than I do and play "better" than I do. I try to learn something new everyday. I keep my mind open and pay attention to anyone that tries to teach me something. It's the drum circle culture that CLEARLY does NOT do this, they clearly show a disdain for studying the rudiments, honoring the drum history, and display an ignorance of the rhythms that have been developed for these instruments for centuries. And they seem to have a hard time holding down a basic beat.


Logical connections................
If you don't see a "logical connection between drumming circles and disrespect to congas and giving it a bad reputation" I have no problem with that. Is the drum "sacred" to me? I never used that term and I'm not sure why you directed your post toward me as if I did use it. I don't think it's sacred however I do respect the drum enough to do some very basic things, for instance learn a few rudiments. That's why I'm here on this forum, to learn more about congas and the rhythms played on them.


Stereotypes......
Yes - these drum circles do create ridiculous and stupid stereotypes about hand drums. Everybody thinks they can play, all they have to do is strike the head. Read these forums, they are full of experiences people have at gigs. Everyone in the club tries to take a turn on your congas when you're not there or they walk by and slap the head if they are within reach. The drum circle culture perpetuates this stupidity and disrespect. It's a CHEAP APPROACH. Most of these people at a drum circle buy a drum on Friday and then go to the park on Saturday (next day) to "jam". They learn bad habits and technique and then they pretty much do that for the rest of their life, all the while telling everyone they "play congas" or percussion! What a joke. It is a disservice to music, the drum, and all those that have passed on their knowledge for others to learn from. If you care to turn a blind eye that's your business. I don't promote or condone this cheap and easy approach to bad sound. The drum is not a toy, unless it's a Remo!

~peace~



Edited By congamyk on 1184601686

[Smejmoon]

Sorry, but every time I see someone play djembe with sticks I want to rip my hair out.

Just to play devil's advocate, I've seen realy good sabar players do that, becouse they did not have proper sabar that time. Excuse was, that it's relaxing to pick up stick after hours of playing congas

(children don't do this at home!)

[MichaelB]

I have a lot of conflicting feelings about the whole topic.

I was a drumset player way back in the 60's...went to Berklee, the whole deal...ended up getting burnt out 30 yrs ago......got back into playing via a hand drum circle a couple of years ago...then started taking West African classes on djembe and homeschooling on congas.....

The African experience made me realize the serious nature of the beast....thousand year old rhythms that fit together perfectly...no ghosting, etc...very clean.....on the other hand.......fingers...(ba boom)...its somewhat like classical music but worse...don't even think about changing the parts...and you can solo when the big guy dies...maybe...

Afro Cuban seems a lot more "alive", in the sense of having both history and future...i.e. rich traditions + room for innovation...ex...Señor Hidalgo....there seems to be a strong ensemble spirit and respect for tradition and those who have paid their dues and set the milestones....much more interactive community..

So, now, when I'm invited to lead a "drum circle" I get a massive attack of mixed feelings... guilt/judgement/irony/..I usually don't go as a participant to other circles anymore, however.

Music is a gift to everyone....that's how I got in, in the first place, and how I got back in....On the other hand we need to respect and honor those who have paid their dues developing their art. I too resent the whole "drums are great toys/party noisemakers" thing...

The bottom line seems to be acceptance that we are all on different places on the different paths to learning...and somehow patiently guiding those who are really interested in pursuing it into something serious, and not judging those who are not.....doesn't sound that hard.....but.....easier to say than do....I still get that queasy feeling in my stomach when I hear that You Tube kind of stuff....

cheers,
Michael Beechey

[Garvin]

Sorry, but every time I see someone play djembe with sticks I want to rip my hair out.

Just to play devil's advocate, I've seen realy good sabar players do that, becouse they did not have proper sabar that time. Excuse was, that it's relaxing to pick up stick after hours of playing congas

(children don't do this at home!)

Yeah, I kind of assumed no one would bring up Sabar. We've used Djembes to perform Sabar rhythms as well for lack of actual sabar drums. You obviously know the difference between a Sabar stick and a drum stick then. It would be pretty funny to go to a drum circle and start playing something like mballax on a djembe just to mess with everyone. I can imagine the pained and dirty looks. HA

I thought Djembe was loud, but my god even just 3 Sabar players in a dance studio is enough to make my ears bleed... One of the few situations that I actually use hearing protection.

[Quinto Governor II]

A lot of good points were made. Too many for me to respond to all. Here a few thoughts however. I enjoyed both videos. bongosnotbombs your circle was really grooving, however; I disagree that the kulani video was in no way similar to your jam. I heard a lot more improvising on the top side but I'm sure your group at some point have played a rhythm similar to some of what kulani was doing. As for disrespecting the drum, I don't believe that at all. I rather see it as a compliment. It shows that someone heard the sound of the drum and is moved, and many times motivated by it . Most I assume, in a positive manner. If the average Joe seeing a hand drum in his sights and is automatically inclined to want to try and play it is disrespectful then, many musicians are also guilty. The other members of the band I play in, do it all the time. Its not a courteous thing to do, but calling it disrespectful to the drum is a bit much for me. The level of participants in drum circles vary. Many Musicians of other instruments participate. Many of its' adherents support the traditional drumming culture ,probably more so than those of the popular music culture. The organization(BIRDS - Baltimore International Rhythm And Drumming Society) that sponsors drum circles in my town, is instrumental in bringing artist of traditional drumming to our town, via their annual Rhythm Festival. Many who attend drum circles take djembe lessons, and some know some afro-cuban. The nature of the circle just does not always allow that type of playing to be heard. Tradition has its place, but there is a time and place for somethings different and for experimentation. Instruments need not be restricted to the realm of so-called serious musicians. The voice is an instrument, and hardly anyone would suggest that someone does not have the right to sing and entertain themselves, if they want to, and anyone who may care to listen, for that matter. Drum circles are not asking people to pay money to here them play. They may ask for money from you to participate, but most often not. The beauty in them is their freedom, and even jazz has its free players.

[congamyk]

Not to keep pressing this but the people that defend the drum circles are using bad examples that have litle to do with the conversation.

If the average Joe seeing a hand drum in his sights and is automatically inclined to want to try and play it is disrespectful then, many musicians are also guilty. The other members of the band I play in, do it all the time. Its not a courteous thing to do, but calling it disrespectful to the drum is a bit much for me.

It's disrespectful to try to play someone elses instrument without their consent. Anyone that has normal parents should know this because they should have been taught. The prison system is full of people that don't understand this.

The level of participants in drum circles vary. Many Musicians of other instruments participate. Many of its' adherents support the traditional drumming culture ,probably more so than those of the popular music culture.

But these people profess to be "percussionists", "congueros", etc. yet never study the basic elements of the music these instruments come from, how can that be? Just because they "play" a drum in the park doesn't make them anything. Any idiot can tap the top of a hand drum, that doesn't make them musicians.

The beauty in them is their freedom, and even jazz has its free players.

This is where you really lose me. Tradition is the foundation, it's NOT a choice or a possibility. Without it we are all starting over and there is nothing. Tradition is the understanding of your instrument, without IT you cannot know HOW to make free, improvised music. And using "free jazz" as an example is not good, it's almost offensive. The Free Jazz movement musicians were the FINEST, most skillful musicians that UNDERSTOOD tradition, had a masterful understanding of chords, scales, melodies and theory. Only THEN could they truley branch out and play freely with improvisation and creativity. If they were hobbyist there would BE NO FREE JAZZ, it would be called junk. Instead they paid their dues and created a new art form.

The "freedom" and creativity you and others refer to in drum circles doesn't really exist. They have to keep playing the same basic 3rd grade patterns year after year BECAUSE they know little about their instrument. How is that freedom?



Edited By congamyk on 1184631228