What to play with Jazz standards?

[Garvin]

I'll step in the middle of this one. As a jazz drummer first and "conga newbie" second I see a definate danger in starting to use the names of rhythms that we might want to impose on a jazz tune. When I play congas with a jazz group I should have been specific about the fact that I use the IDEA of a cha cha or guaguanco or bembe. Not that I completely bastardize the traditional rhythms out of a lack of knowledge or respect, but in order to fit the tune better, you find yourself improvising (or at least you should). It's the same thing I tell aspiring "latin-jazz" drum set players about using these fully fleshed out rhythms on drum set. You don't want to cram clave into a latin-jazz tune just because it might fit in there somewhere. Often times you'll find that the band might only have a tenuous grasp or worse yet no idea at all what clave even is. I know that may seem rediculous to folks on this forum, but particularly when you bring conga concepts into different genres, you need to be prepared to let some things go.

There are few more divisive discussions that can arise for musicians than what is or isn't jazz or worse yet "latin" jazz. There may be a thousand different things to play for the same song, and it's up to you as the responsible conguero to choose what fits best.

[yambu321]

:cool:



Edited By yambu321 on 1196046977

[Mike]

NOW WITH CONTEMPORARY JAZZ, A CONGA MAY NOT BE REQUIRED AND OR ALMOST SEEM IMPOSIBLE TO USE AT TIMES

Yep, I also thought so - unless I heard Jerry Gonzalez on DON BYRON´s "Music for six musicians", a really avantgarde jazz album. OK, one way or the other, it´s Latin-related, but otherwise it´s rather cool free jazz - Jerry´s grooves are really tricky.

[yambu321]

:cool:



Edited By yambu321 on 1196047067

[Mike]

Yeah, Yambu, you are right, Jerry Gonzalez is progressive all the way and a very tough player!

[bongosnotbombs]

I'll step in the middle of this one. As a jazz drummer first and "conga newbie" second I see a definate danger in starting to use the names of rhythms that we might want to impose on a jazz tune. When I play congas with a jazz group I should have been specific about the fact that I use the IDEA of a cha cha or guaguanco or bembe. Not that I completely bastardize the traditional rhythms out of a lack of knowledge or respect, but in order to fit the tune better, you find yourself improvising (or at least you should). It's the same thing I tell aspiring "latin-jazz" drum set players about using these fully fleshed out rhythms on drum set. You don't want to cram clave into a latin-jazz tune just because it might fit in there somewhere. Often times you'll find that the band might only have a tenuous grasp or worse yet no idea at all what clave even is. I know that may seem rediculous to folks on this forum, but particularly when you bring conga concepts into different genres, you need to be prepared to let some things go.

There are few more divisive discussions that can arise for musicians than what is or isn't jazz or worse yet "latin" jazz. There may be a thousand different things to play for the same song, and it's up to you as the responsible conguero to choose what fits best.

I am going to totally agree with this, I play bongos with a jazz group every week. What I play is usually a very twisted form of the martillo, but every song is a different twist.
I twist it so much it's not really recognizable as martillo anymore except in my mind.
A strategy I use is to try and use a series of 4 16th notes in the pattern, or triplets, as the drummer and bass player are typically playing 1/8th notes or dotted 1/8th notes..
I havent played congas yet, but I imagine if I did, I would be trying to play my open tones on the downbeats that are'nt being accented by the bass player, which is often the 1 & 3.
That's pretty simplified I know.



Edited By bongosnotbombs on 1184948002

[congamyk]

Jerry Gonzales and Fort Apache were instrumental in developing modern latin Jazz.

In my opinion Bobby Matos and John Santos are taking it to the whole next level. Check them out!

I play congas with any style of jazz; swing, modern, straight-ahead and I use bembe and abukua patterns over 3 or 6 time. It fits if you know the music and interpret the feel correctly.

spiritdrum and others, one of my favorite conga in jazz tune is Ralph Moore's "Episode from a Village Dance"
see it here. Victor See-Yuen plays congas and is brilliant. This conga player knows jazz music~!



Edited By congamyk on 1184954777

[JohnnyConga]

Congamyk...Jerry and the guys I'm sorry to say were not the forerunners of modern Latin Jazz music...How old are you? I ask because if you were born in the 70's u know nothing of the 40's 50's 60's and 70's Latin Jazz music in NYCity....ah..Tito Puente, Cal Tjader, Dave Valentin is one....check your musical history, please....now Bobby Matos..well my good buddy to me is not making any head way by taking "old Latin head chart music" and just "jamming it out".....John Santos has always been in the forefront of Latin Jazz, chek his Discography...BTW...what is "Modern" Latin Jazz to you, versus Old Latin Jazz????....you sound to matter of fact without the facts...IMHO....."JC" Johnny Conga...

[JohnnyConga]

BTW here are 3 "modern" Latin Jazz artists...Michel Camilo, Gonzalo Rubalcaba, and Danilo Perez.....Jerry and his guys didnt come around until the 80's..how soon we forget Mongo Santamaria, who stayed "modern" and influenced Jerry as well as many others....pick up the Book "Latin Jazz" the Perfect Combination by Raul Fernandez....."JC" Johnny Conga.....

[JohnnyConga]

BTW again .....I would credit IRAKERE with being the catalyst for the development of the "New Latin Jazz" though in Cuba they would call it "Cuban Jazz"...or "Afro-Cuban Jazz"....."JC" Johnny Conga...

[congamyk]

JC you are no doubt older so I concede that

I don't look at the evolution of latin jazz from a New York City perspective. I don't discount it either. But more important to me is the relevance Latin Jazz had on the mainstream jazz culture, record sales and the musical influence it had nationally and internationally.

Perhaps we disagree on what the term "modern" jazz means. In the Latin jazz evolution each new sound that comes along could be termed "modern."

I use "modern" in the sense that it is dedicated to the Blue Note or mainstream jazz era that has basically maintained it's following in the core of mainstream listeners. Also the influence that it has on jazz musicians everywhere. For instance, Brazilian bossa nova was around awhile and thriving in Brazil but when Getz and Jobim brought it to the US, it changed the perspective of jazz listeners forever and had an everlasting impact on all of jazz music.

Jerry G and Fort Apache were indeed "instrumental" in the development of Latin jazz. Don't misundertand me, I'm not saying they started it, I'm saying they played a unique role. I don't see how anyone could think otherwise. They may not have influenced you, but they brought the genre to the forefront in record sales and with the influence they had on jazz musicians. Patato and Mongo lead their bands in the " old guard" but Jerry Gonzales was the first conguero to LEAD a band in the "modern" genre - check that fact out.

In my opinion Michel Camilo, Gonzalo Rubalcaba and Danilo Perez are contemporaries of Bobby Matos and John Santos, since they are all making ground-breaking music at the same time in their careers; right now! There is a distinction of when they started playing and at what level but all of them have found thier own unique sound and niche. Correct me if incorrect (I'm not googling this) just going from memory. Michel I believe is Dominican and has a strong classical background. In the 80's and 90's he performed alot of what could be considered smooth jazz. Gonzalo is steeped in the jazz tradition and I believe was the first non-US born musician to have won the Thelonious Monk award. Danilo the same, all with a very classical upbringing.

Matos and Santos are more relevant to me because they are percussionists and because they fuse the folkloric with jazz improvisation with the standards.

I encourage everyone here to check out Matos and Santos, their music will take your playing to another level and you will gain a good grasp on the folkloric with jazz.



Edited By congamyk on 1184968691

[yambu321]

:cool:



Edited By yambu321 on 1196047234

[JohnnyConga]

What era is modern?..the one u live in today?. or the one yesterday? ...Ever hear "Sabu" Martinez Jazz Espagnole, album from 1963?....if it was played today it would sound "modern"...and i have many many albums that sound just as modern today, as well as my own CD Johnny Conga & Caribe recorded in the early 90's.....I'm not taking anything away from my 'homey' Jerry me and him go waaaaaaay back,. to the time when he couldn't play squat.....don't get me started on the bossa nova issue either......I will tell u this if u ask a Brasilian what is Bossa Nova he will tell u "I don't know"....they never listened to it in Brasil only here in the USA....I am also an X member of Sergio Mendes and Brasil 77 so if there is anything u want to know about Brasilian music besides Jobim, Sergio had a lot to do with it to. As much as i hate to give him credit for anything.....BEFORE JERRY there was IRAKERE!.....where do u think he got his ideas from besides playing like Miles Davis....or haven't u noticed?...."JC" Johnny Conga....

[bongosnotbombs]

I just got a Sabu Martinez cd yesterday, Palo Conga, it's very good,
very folkloric. Looking forward to getting more of this undermentioned artist...

and now back to the discussion



Edited By bongosnotbombs on 1184977108

[Quinto Governor II]

congamyk wrote:


Jerry G and Fort Apache were indeed "instrumental" in the development of Latin jazz. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying they started it, I'm saying they played a unique role. I don't see how anyone could think otherwise. They may not have influenced you, but they brought the genre to the forefront in record sales and with the influence they had on jazz musicians. Patato and Mongo lead their bands in the " old guard" but Jerry Gonzales was the first conguero to LEAD a band in the "modern" genre - check that fact out.


Congamyk and JohnnyConga have an interesting discussion going. Can't disagree with anything congamyk said. He restated his position clearly. Sounds feasible to me based on my limited knowledge. I know I heard the name Fort Apache band, somewhere in my travels, although I'm not sure if I had ever heard any of their music, long before I'd heard of Irakere. I would like to ask, where does Mongo's or Mongo's/Cal Tjader's recording of Afro Blue fit in this picture? Also what bands were influenced by Fort Apache, and what bands may have been influenced by Irakere. could their have been a dual development in different directions? I'm speculating if Americans were influenced more by Fort Apache and Latin musicians more by Irakere. What do you think guys. BTW enjoying this discussion.