Volcano Congas from Hawaii - Any info

[bongo]

mjtuazon,

No I'm not defensive, nor really concerned with what you say ... so continue along your path and keep playing the very old and worn traditional way, which you seem to consider to include elitism.

Belief is a powerful thing, and since you know the PLAIN TRUTH, I'm done trying to say any other thing.

May our spirits stay positive.

bongo



Edited By bongo on 1186979878

[pcastag]

"RUMBEROS" "CONGUEROS". what are these terms? Charlie's statement would be like me saying tamboreros can play anything a rumbero can, a rumbero can't play everything a tamborero can, therefore tamboreros are better than both congueros and rumberos! LOL C'mon, we're really talking about musicianship OK? I've played live (I'm primarily a drumset player) with some pretty badass congueros and timbaleros ( Edgardo Morales from Gran Combo, Jorge "cro-cro" Orta from Niche and currently with Andres Bermudez who's played with a ton of salsa groups) and while none of them were so called rumberos, they could play circles around some of the "so-called rumberos" I've sat with , and in certain cases could play SOME things better than some of the legit rumberos I've had the honor of studying with (Alberto Villareal, Skip Barnay, Long John Oliva, Abraham Rodriguez). It's kind of like saying a jazz drummer can play everything a rock drummer can, not always true, there are nuances in rock drumming and pocket issues that some jazz drummers just can't really grasp. Do you really think elvin jones could out rock boinham? Or vice versa? Bottom line is there are some congueros who are pretty bad ass! And there are certain things that come with sitting down night after night doing the same thing. I think a true Rumbero would recognize that it's pretty hard to beat Eddie Montalvo's Tumbao, and although he's not a "RUMBERO" I think many legit Rumberos would respect his playing and understand that.
PC

[yambu321]

GENTLEMEN,

WOW; 1ST I WOULD LIKE TO THANK MANNY (MJTUAZON) FOR UNDERSTANDING THE TRUE MEANING OF WHAT I WAS SAYING,
AND FOR ALSO STICKING UP FOR ME THE WAY YOU HAVE, YOU ARE A VERY WELL SPOKEN YOUNG MAN, THANK YOU :;):

AS FOR YOU BONGO,
IF I HAVE HIT A NERVE, PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I MEANT NO DISRESPECT. BEING A RUMBERO DOES NOT MAKE ONE, A CONGA GOD! BUT A RUMBA, IS THE MOVEMENT OF SPIRITUAL TYPE PLAYERS AND DRUMS.

IT WAS JUST LIKE I HAD MENTIONED ON MY LAST POST, THAT I WAS SURE A STANDARD CONGERO WOULD HAVE A REBUTAL OF SORTS.
LOOK, AS A CONGERO YOU MUST BE ABLE TO KNOW YOUR BASIC RHYTHMS, SUCH AS THE
FOLLOWING, PERIOD:

BOLERO
CHA-CHA
CUMBIA
MAMBO
SON ( VARIOUS )
MERENGUE
BOMBA, (VARIOUS), FOR BAND
PLENA, FOR BAND
FUNK
JAZZ (VARIOUS)
BLUES (VARIOUS)
ROCK (VARIOUS)
TO NAME THE MOST IMPORTANT, OR YOU WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED A GOOD, WELL EDUCATED CONGERO.

RUMBERO'S,

AT A RUMBA, ARE NOT EVEN GOING TO GO TO THOSE RHYTHMS. THEY WOULD CONCENTRATE ON THE FOLLOWING INSTEAD:

BOMBA (VARIOUS FOLKLORIC) PUERTO RICO
MAKUTA (CUBA)
MOZAMBIQUE
GUANGUANCO
YAMBU
COLOMBIA
IYESA
BEMBE
ABAKUA
GUARAPACHANGUEO
PALO
PILON
PLENA (PUERTO RICO)

LOOK BONGO, BE REAL.
IT'S OBVIOUS THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
YOU CANNOT FULLY UNDERSTAND, UNLESS YOU ARE AMONGST THAT BREED OF CONGA PLAYERS.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT BEING SO CALLED ELITES, THIS IS ABOUT WHY A GONGERO, MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND WHY A RUMBERO, OR RUMBERA, SEES THINGS THE WAY HE OR SHE DOES.

BEING A RUMBERO IS LIKE BEING IN A RELIGION.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE CONGAS, BATAS, AND CAJONES COMMUNICATING TOGETHER IN, STRICT FASHION.

CONGEROS, DON'T HAVE TO BE RUMBEROS, TO BE EXCELLENT PLAYERS. THERE ARE CONGEROS THAT HAVE SUPERIOR SKILLS OVER SOME RUMBEROS. YET IF THEY ARE GOING TO SIT IN, THEY MUST KNOW HOW TO PLAY THEIR PARTS.

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT STREET DRUMMERS THAT CALL THEMSELVES RUMBEROS. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE EDUCATED, STRICT TO THE CORE, RUMBEROS.

BEING A RUMBERO IS A CULTURE IN IT'SELF.
PLEASE, THINK THIS THROUGH, CAREFULLY.

NOW ABOUT OLD RYHTHMS AND SUCH, DON'T EVEN GO THERE, BECAUSE UNLESS YOU YOURSELF HAVE SOMETHING TRULY UNIQUE, THESE RHYTHMS AND THEIR VARIATIONS, ARE THE CORE RHYTHMS OF THE WORLD.


CHARLIE "EL COQUI" VERDEJO



Edited By yambu321 on 1186972894

[yambu321]

ONCE AGAIN,

I'M TALKING ABOUT APPLES,
WHILE ANOTHER IS TALKING ABOUT ORANGES.
JAZZ, SALSA, MUSIC IS UNIVERSAL, OR WHAT EVER,
HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I AM SAYING.
SAY WHAT YOU MUST NOW, BUT DO REFLECT ON YOUR WORDS LATER ON. TAMBORAS ARE FOR MERENGEROS, A DIFFERENT CULTURE, AND NO, NOT BETTER, BUT DIFFERENT, AND
LIMITED OVERALL.

I'M DONE WITH THIS TOPIC. GOOD LUCK :;):



Edited By yambu321 on 1186995579

[pcastag]

Tamborero is a term commonly used in cuba for people who play Bata, probably the most complicated and complex form of afro-caribbean drumming, I was not referring to people playing tamboras. As for styles, music is music and universal, therefore the analogy of jazz vs. rock drumming is appropriate IMHO.
PC

[yambu321]

BATA, IS USED IN SANTERIA, AND IN RUMBA.
AND NO, NOT MORE DIFFICULT TO PLAY.

SOME PLAY CONGAS,
SOME PLAY BATA,
SOME PLAY CAJON,
AND SOME DO KNOW HOW TO PLAY THEM ALL.

BUT, ONCE AGAIN, YOU ARE MISSING THE WHOLE POINT. YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE THIS INTO SOMETHING THAT IT IS NOT. FOR SURE NO MORE COMMENTARY WILL COME FROM ME ON THIS TOPIC FOR NOW, OR THE NEAR FUTURE, I KNOW I WAS QUITE CLEAR ON WHAT I MEANT. :p



Edited By yambu321 on 1186966908

[pcastag]

Do you play bata? Do you understand the complexities of the bata reportoire? By your statements it is obvious you don't The list of rhythms that you mentioned that true rumberos must learn doesn't even cover 1/3 of what one would have to learn in order to play just part of the oru seco. In bata there are multitudes of different toques, each one with multiple 'caminos' or sections, and 3 parts each not to mention the floreos. The rhythms that you mentioned above while difficult to master are not that difficult to learn.There many rumberos who cannot play bata, but the best of them can, which is why they are the best rumberos , because their foundation is in the bata.
PC

[109-1176549166]

mjtuazon,

No I'm not defensive, nor really concerned with what you say ... so continue along your path and keep playing the very old and worn traditional way, which you seem to consider to include elitism.

Belief is a powerful thing, and since you know the PLAIN TRUTH, I'm done trying to say any other thing.

May our spirits stay positive.

bongo

bongo,

If you noticed in my previous post that I began it with the phrase, "with all due respect". I even ended it with a greeting of peace.

>nor really concerned with what you say

You posted your reaction to Charlie's email to the entire forum, which certainly includes me as part of the entire readership, expecting us (I suppose) to read it. And now, you're telling me that you're not really concerned with what I say. Isn't that being a little snobbish?

How do you expect others to listen to what you say if you're not concerned with what others, in turn, have to say? Dialogue is never a one-way street. Definitely, so is respect.

>playing the very old and worn traditional way,

Very old is not necessary "worn". In Logic, this is what's known as a "non sequitur" statement, meaning, your conclusion (the word "worn") doesn't necessary follow from your assumption ("very old").

The cold reality is that centuries after the invention of the Afro-Cuban conga, the "tumbao", among others, is still one of the basic rhythm patterns being universally used. Based on what you just said about the "very old" being "worn", you seem to be saying that the "tumbao" is a "worn" way? I hate to say it, but, IMO, you'd be hard pressed to find any one else agreeing with you regarding this. You seem to have just appointed yourself an authority on conga history and seem to be re-writing conga history.

>which you seem to consider to include elitism.

Now, how were you ever able to come up with your conclusion about me, seeming "to consider to include elitism", come from? Are you able to read my thoughts? Do you know me better than I do myself?

If you really knew me, as a former Catholic Christian cloistered monk who at one time gave up my entire material possessions to follow my faith, I'd be one of the last persons to consider "elitism".

Being distinct or different doesn't necessarily mean being elite. Again, your statement is "non sequitur". At least, you're consistent in being judgmental about me.

I'm 110% for our spirits staying positive. But, IMO, it is absolutely essential that we first avoid making rash false judgments about others.

>since you know the PLAIN TRUTH, I'm done trying to say any other thing.

When I mentioned the PLAIN TRUTH, I meant the simple truth. An example of a simple truth is that your User ID is "bongo" whereas mine is "mjtuazon". Another simple or plain truth is that we are both human beings. The plain truth is nothing more than the objective fact--not distorted by any subjective bias.

I also absolutely didn't mean the PLAIN TRUTH to mean the WHOLE BODY OF TRUTH and that I'm the only one who knows all the truth in the universe, which you seem to imply. Again, this is a "non sequitur" statement and a rash, erroneous judgment of my character. I'd probably be the very last person to EVEN ENTERTAIN the thought that I'm all-knowing, that I'm the only one who knows all the truth in world and that no one else does.

Don't worry, I don't take personal offense to everything erroneous that you've labelled me with. I've learned long ago that it's just part of living in this imperfect world. I simply leave that to the Boss upstairs. All I've done above is respond to you with more objective, plain facts to correct your rash, erroneous perception about me.



Edited By mjtuazon on 1186977335

[109-1176549166]

Do you play bata? Do you understand the complexities of the bata reportoire? By your statements it is obvious you don't The list of rhythms that you mentioned that true rumberos must learn doesn't even cover 1/3 of what one would have to learn in order to play just part of the oru seco. In bata there are multitudes of different toques, each one with multiple 'caminos' or sections, and 3 parts each not to mention the floreos. The rhythms that you mentioned above while difficult to master are not that difficult to learn.There many rumberos who cannot play bata, but the best of them can, which is why they are the best rumberos , because their foundation is in the bata.
PC

C'mon guys, let's quit this. This seems to be turning into a silly, pissing contest.

I certainly didn't see any malice in what Charlie ever said. I think that everything he tried to convey was done in an innocent way. Notice his generous emoticons. They're all either smiling or in a joking mood.

We all know that the email is not the best conveyor of a writer's true mood. We can be so easily misunderstood--and misunderstand.

I think some people simply misread Charlie's mood and overreacted. Let's all try to give Charlie, and everyone else, the benefit of the doubt.



Edited By mjtuazon on 1187009617

[CongaTick]

Hmmm... this topic "Volcano Congas from Hawaii" has certainly gone around the bend. Forgive me for bending it even more.

My guiding percussion instructor for the past 30 years has never left my side. He is always with me when I practice or gig, even when I sleep. He's my Inferiority Complex. I know that I will never master the multitude of traditional patterns that have been discussed in this thread . I don't have the intense and continuing discipline required of perpetually drilling their complexity. I admit the prospect of it bores me. I know and play many of the basic ones, but fot the rest... So I steal shamelessly. Pieces and chunks from everywhere, and I mold and alter them to fit in order to carve a groove regardless of the music I play. And they works, it seems, for all those for whom I play. But Inferiority Complex is always there, fueling the paranoia that some day, some night, at some gig, a conguero with chops solidly grounded in the traditional Afro-Cuban patterns will whisper in my ear: "Hey bro, you don't know what the f***k you're doing." So me and my Inferiority Complex keep at it. Quietly, perisistently practicing non-traditional patterns, inventing new ones, stealing bits and pieces from here and there, molding and shaping and sharpening the rudiments and strokes as tools for my own cobbled together creations. Though he never leaves my side, I suspect Inferiority Complex has got a lot of other students he's never told me about.

[Facundo]

I also agree with you that "there is a combination of things that go into making the "best drum" - the shape, the wood, the head and how all of this is put together by the drum maker." However, I'll have to disagree with you that it's ALL (totally) subjective. There are also OBJECTIVE criteria to determine what is the "best" drum. Being ALL subjective, IMO, implies being "arbitrary", "whimsical" or "biased".

Allow me to explain why I say this is all subjective. First and foremost what one person considers as the best drum may be another persons last choice. This is because of how they play and what aspects of the drums tonal qualities is most important to that person. Some like an almost dry tone to their drums with what Matt Smith calls a "short note". That is, an open tone that is short with little to no sustain. Others like an open tone that is long that give a big open that tends to have a long sustain. Both oak and mahogany give long notes. However, mahognay is sweeter and oak is round and woody. However, none of this is "whimsical" or "arbitrary". It is "biased" towards and based on one's personal taste and there is nothing wrong with that.

In a conversation I had with Matt about this he noted that drummers who play raggae tend to hate drums with long notes. Of course, raggae and rumba are two different musical styles but the same also holds true for rumberos as well with regard to the tonality of their drums. I agree there may be some "criteria" as you call them that may hold true across the board but the final choice made by any player is subjective to that person. That is assuming that the construction the choices is relatively equal. No one wants a drum that is put together with poor glue and subject to cracks or will go out of round.

Never the less the choices made of available woods will also vary from one player to the other. Oak, ash, maple, maghogany as well as a host of exotic woods all have different tonalities as well as different responses to the touch. I personally dislike LPs but there are many in this forum that love them. I also think that many of the short comings of LP drums get lost under the hands of the various master players that endorse them. LPs get the endorsements because of the perks they offer and not because they are the "Strads" of congas.

Facundo



Edited By Facundo on 1187023532

[Facundo]

Would any of you say that Los Munequitos playing on LPs, Minels or Tocas would not sound "traditional"? I hardly think so.

My two cents,
Facundo

Facundo,

I'm really loving this thread! I always enjoy a good, civil cerebral joust!

There's got to be a limit to what one can do with certain drums no matter how good the player is. Los Munequitos playing on drums that ring won't be able to remove that ring (without adding tape under the skins) no matter how good they are.

I guess at this point, before going any further, we need to define, "What is traditional sound?" Is it the same as folkloric? Somebody's got to be an authority on this.

Charlie (Yambu321) introduced, IMO, a very important distinction: congueros vs. rumberos. Rumberos seem to be more picky about their drums sounding folkloric and Charlie listed the drums that they prefer. Congueros, on the other hand, seem more flexible and more open to variations in sound and Charlie also listed the drums that are open to.

Yeah, I like this tread too. You raise a good point about defining "traditional" and "folkloric". I think what some consider "traditional" is often stuff that is staged for show as opposed to real rumbas that happen in the solars or impromtu parties of Cuba. All this talk about tradional and folkloric is nebulous at best. I have seen Puntia rock the house playing rumba on a plastic bucket and wooden box after a bembe. I also remember hanging with Los Munequitos at private parties given by local Cubans after their shows in Philly. The point is seeing rumba in its' true element is far different than seeing it on stage. I think what is traditional has to do with the spirit of what is played. You are more likely to see this off stage. I also personaly hate the term "folkloric" because it hints at something that is "of the people" but lacks the polish "prepared" artistry. That, for me, is anthropological bull ....!

Two more cents,
Facundo

[Facundo]

I think it is also important to mention the issue of "playing to the room". Too often I have heard drummers playing the same volume all the time. Rooms that are very 'live" do not need to be approached the same as a room that has sound absorbative properties. You hear this a lot with gimbe players but conga drummers can be just as guilty.

This brings to mind something that happened sometime last Spring when my conguero buddies and I played 4 songs for a group of folks who had just had a meeting in a large wooden room behind the auditorium at Chautauqua park in Boulder. My friend who had gotten us the gig brought in his rare set of plastic coated gon bops. For those drum geeks in the crowd, I'm not sure what they're called, but they're black with heavier than the usual Gon Bop hardware. They are louder than freeking hell, and you couldn't hear any of our singing though we were straining really hard! Thus, our first tune almost completely cleared the room. People were holding their ears!
This room though was certainly no ordinary room of it's size. It was easily 300 feet square and about that high, but the walls, ceiling, and floor were all hard wood paneling without anything to absorb sound.
So, I ran out to my car and we all yanked my four Mahogony Sols into the frey, and about 3/4 of the people who ran outside came back in and danced with smiles the rest of the time!
so, yeah, the room matters a great deal!
You really need soft sounding drums when there's un-amplified singing or instrumentation.
You can get away with hard wood or plastic drums outside maybe, but in a sound reflecting chamber, you gotta be soft!

Hey Windhorse,

I may be splitting fine hairs here but I think your situation well illustrates my real point. You could have eased the pain on everyone's ears by adjusting your touch and lowering your volume. This is not always easy to do when you are acustomed to playing from high chest level. My point was that there are rooms that are so live or even drums that project so well that the needed volume can be had with a lot less effort. I have to wonder why you guys used the other drums over your sweet maghogies in the first place? Also, in my personal practice I have found a whole "new drum" in just doing my exercises from the wrist. The control you develope as well as a greater range of volume that comes from this is amazing.

Facundo

[Tonio]

Facundo,
interesting thoughts and information. I do agree about the subjectiveness of tradition/folkloric being nebulous. It is the perfomer's wants/needs for a certain genre/gig or perhaps just a means of being innovative also. i.e. Salsero may want a sustained open tone conga for 1 gig, maybe even one tune, and turn around and a dry tone for the next tune. It could be as simple as changing drums or more drastic, changing heads. And your example of playing on a plastic pail-allthough extreme is right on.
You analogy of folkloric and traditional are in line with my thoughts also. Though I have no problem with folkloric. I don't think is as put down e.g. NOT polished. I regard it more in the sense that the repetoire is more oriented towards the group of rhythmns previously mentioned in a cultural perfomance, then say at a concert- Even though there are folkloric conerts per se currently.
And about LP, I don't love them either, but as we all know with better skins, they can be usuable. My usage in the LP's is for the consistancy of them. They will almost always have a predictable performance if kept in the same configuration for a good period of time. It gives
a reproducable sound.Even though with goods skins the ring is still there. But for recording and live gigs, its not as apparent.

Now trying to get back to the topic I will assume the Volcano's are more on the long sustian type drum.

T

[Tonio]

Speaking of which, I would really like this portion of the thread to have its own topic.
For it has interesting insight to which we all can benefit. It just does'nt belong here

T