Cuban influence in early R&R and R&B - tresillo, clave and guajeo's impact

[congamyk]

99.9999999999999999999999999999% of American R&B and Rock musicians have never heard of Jelly Roll Morton, Louis Moreao Gottchalk or a "tresillo."



Edited By congamyk on 1187750920

[davidpenalosa]

I think you may be right. How about that? You and are both in that 00.0000000000000000000001% !!!

-David

[davidpenalosa]

PS
On the other hand, I think that nearly 100% of American Jazz, R&B and Rock musicians would instantly recognize the rhythmic figure upon HEARING it.
-deadhorsedave



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1187757196

[pcastag]

OMG! I just stumbled on this one! This is hilarious! Congamyk you have truly exposed yourself! Dude, you are hilarious! 90% percents of jazz r&b and rock comes from European influences? That's right that's whay all the first and most talented jazz musicians were white! Hell, they probably invented gospel and field hollars as well! Sub saharan african music devoid of melody and rhythmic complexity? Have you ever even attempted to play bata, from the yoruba people straight out of the jungles of subsaharan west africa? My goodnes, lets see, first toque of the oru seco, five distinct rhythms on three different drums == 15, not to mention the llamadas ( calls ) and floreos ( improv.) Thats the first rhythm of at least 23 just for the unsung parts, but hey any African kid could learn that in a couple of days! right? Comparing the bodhran to what is played in african music is pretty hilarious. One drum vs. an ensemble of three with 2-3 distinct sound sources. Right. That s like saying a fiddler plays what a string quartet does. Dude you definitley got me on this one. I though your comments in an earlier post were borderline, but now you have truly exposed yourself! Hilarious! I'm surprised this thread got as far as it did !
PC

[pcastag]

I don’t mean to be beating a dead horse here, but awhile back there was some question as to the importance of two American musicians who extensively used the rhythmic figure tresillo. I recently discovered a 1995 series of ten US postage stamps honoring jazz pioneers. Jelly Roll Morton was one of the ten. I also found a 1997 series of eight stamps honoring American composers and conductors. Louis Moreao Gottchalk was one of the honored eight.

The influence of the Cuban Habanera on Gottchalk and Morton led to tresillo becoming a staple of American popular music.
-David

Please don't forget the importance of the Haitian influence in N.O. there are many people who will claim that the music that came out of Santiago, ( son) was tremendously influenced by the influx of haitians in the early 1800's due to the revolution there. We all know that vodun and some other distinctly haitian religious musical forms are very prominent, and in some cases dominant, in eastern cuba. the "tresillo" may have been a rhythmic concept brought to N.O from the french caribbean, and to Cuba via Haiti.
PC

[congamyk]

OMG! I just stumbled on this one! This is hilarious! Congamyk you have truly exposed yourself! Dude, you are hilarious! 90% percents of jazz r&b and rock comes from European influences?

I think you expose your whack politics every time you disagree with someone.

The chords, melodies, language and all of the instruments used for all musical genres that started in the US (R&B, jazz, Rock) are from Europe.

If you have a problem with that or it harms your politics I could care less. We can argue about how close a certain rhythm sounds when compared to a rhythm from a past culture, but the chords, melodies, instruments and language (English) are all of European descent.



Edited By congamyk on 1187825751

[congamyk]

I think you may be right. How about that? You and are both in that 00.0000000000000000000001% !!!

-David

I was careful to qualify what I said and specifically used "American R&B and Rock musicians". I'm a jazz musician and heard of him over 20 years ago. I think most jazz musicians have heard of him.



Edited By congamyk on 1187825859

[davidpenalosa]

Congamyk,
I apologize for my careless reading of your post. I've had a secret desire to be a rock star since I was a boy and so must have sub-consciously included myself in your hypothetical survey.

-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1187829120

[davidpenalosa]

PC,
The “Hatiano” influence on the proto son – changui and other musics of Cuba’s Oriente (eastern) region is well documented. It’s true that the Oriente and New Orleans both received large influxes of Haitians in the 1800’s. As a result, we now have Vodu in Cuban and Hoodoo in N.O. However, I am not aware of any direct Haitian musical influences that can be identified in N.O. music. Is there Hoodoo drumming today? What does it sound like and why aren’t there any recordings of it? I’m not saying that Haiti had no musical influence on the Crescent City, there’s just no evidence that I’m aware of.

For years I heard vague references to N.O.’s Congo Square and the resulting preservation of African musical elements that eventually ended up in jazz. I’ve never heard or read anything concrete about this though. If there are any congaboard members out there who have some info on this, I’m all ears.

Tresillo is the most basic rhythmic cell in 4/4 Sub-Saharan African music. I don’t think its existence in the Caribbean and Brazil can be traced back to any specific Congolese, or West African ethnic influences, or Congolese and West African ethnic influences synthesized in Haiti (Vodou). Probably most or all Sub-Saharan African music use tresillo in some fashion. It’s that basic.

As an aside – tresillo is also popular across a wide belt of Moslem countries from Morocco to India. However, in Asia it’s used within an additive rhythmic framework, while in Africa the structure is divisive rhythm.

There’s a historic record of the use of tresillo in popular music of the Western Hemisphere. This history does involve Haiti. The French plantation owners brought the French contra danza to Cuba when they fled the Haitian Revolution. In Cuba the contra danza was then “Africanized” by the incorporation of tresillo and its five-stroke derivative, cinquillo (1803).

Who can say which transplanted African music contributed tresillo to the Cuban danza? Most likely, tresillo was already abundant in many transplanted musics as well as in original Cuban hybrids. In the mid-1800’s the Havana-style danza, known off the island as the Habanera, became internationally popular.

The Habanera and its descendant the tango, were popular musical genres in the United States for over a century. All the evidence I’ve read points to Habanera sheet music rather than Congo Square as the source for tresillo’s use in North American music.
-David

PS
let's everybody play nice

[pcastag]

OMG! I just stumbled on this one! This is hilarious! Congamyk you have truly exposed yourself! Dude, you are hilarious! 90% percents of jazz r&b and rock comes from European influences?

I think you expose your whack politics every time you disagree with someone.

The chords, melodies, language and all of the instruments used for all musical genres that started in the US (R&B, jazz, Rock) are from Europe.

If you have a problem with that or it harms your politics I could care less. We can argue about how close a certain rhythm sounds when compared to a rhythm from a past culture, but the chords, melodies, instruments and language (English) are all of European descent.

Melodies? Yes the Europeans were definitely pitch bending and heavily using the pentatonic in most of their popular music in the 1600's. :p Instrumentaion? Of course, the slave masters of the US took all of the drums away from the slaves. LOL No doubt that any music thay had to perform was performed on European instruments. But again, 90% European ??? , that's why I stated that all the original dixieland jazz gropus, southern gospel and blues band were predominately white! I think it's pretty well documented by SCHOLARS, yes, the people who sit around and talk about music, that of the differing influences in jazz music a good many of them come from the african music sensibility, such as: synchopation, call and response, improvisation, heavy use of the pentatonic ( most closely related "european" scale to the 5 and 7 tone scales of many "non melodic" sub saharan african clutures) polyrhythms, etc. etc. etc. Obvioulsy the European influences were many, instrumentation being one ( although the drumset as an "instrument" most likely was an american invention- and most likely African American) harmonic structure being another. Now if we want to argue about the "european " nature of instruments, we can do so for days. the guitar was "borrowed" from arabs, most likely from North Africa, the banjo commonly used in early dixieland jazz was most likely an african american invention, it resembles many stringed instruments from out sub saharan - non melodic - simplistic rhyrhmic brethren. So again, I do question your 90% data.
PC

PS Whack politics? Wow you're really going out on a limb here. Where the hell in this forum have I EVER mentioned politics! Or my political affiliation! For all you know I could be a die-hard southern christian conservative republican. Or could your statement be like so many of your arguments, based on Your assumtions? You're really exposing yourself now dude! :laugh:



Edited By pcastag on 1187837155

[pcastag]

Interesting point david, I've never really heard of the Habanera, nor of its popularity in the US. AS far as Jelly Roll Morton is concerned, I know he cut his teeth like many other "creoles" and black musicians in NO did playing in brothels in storyville, but I don't really know where the Habanera comes into all of that. The idea of congo square and the 'New orleans" street beats that undoubtedly iinfluenced many musicians in NO came out of the same catholic tradition that helped maintain the rhythmic culture in so many catholic colonies in the Western Hemisphere, the pre-lentan celebrations. I would tend to think that these festivities in which blacks were allowed to celebrate using their own rhythms had more impact on the development of jazz in NO than other international dances of the day. Since the french influence was so strong, and since many of the slaves in NO prior to the louisiana purchace came directly from the french caribbean I would attribute the unique rhythmic developments in NO and their used of their own version of the "clave" to them, much as brazil has developed it's own "clave".

PC

[davidpenalosa]

PC,
Your hypothesis about NO music seems reasonable, you just aren’t able to back it up with any data.

There isn’t a “Brazilian clave” per se. The clave principal is apparent in Brazilian music, although they didn’t PERCIEVE it in that way until relatively recently, most likely a Cuban influence.

Evidence points to the two-side clave pattern entering NO music in the 1940’s via Cuban music. There is no “NO clave”, the most common clave pattern used in NO music is what we call son clave. There’s also bell patterns they adopted during the mambo era. That’s the historical record. When I began researching the African rhythmic influences in NO, I expected to find something along the lines of your hypothesis. Nothing. It makes sense that Cuba would have such a significant musical influence on the Western Hemisphere. There was written music based on African rhythmic motifs in Cuba a full century before the birth of jazz. Cuban music was a part of the standard repertoire when ragtime and jazz emerged.

On a related subject, I think it’s a complete waste of time discussing what percentage of European or African musical sensibilities make up jazz. Jazz is a true synthesis that would definitely not exist without its two primary sources.

To quickly summarize a lot of data I’ve already posted in this and the “Zaragemca's breif on Jazz Music” thread, Jelly Roll Morton cited the rhythmic figure tresillo as an essential element of jazz. Here’s a limited timeline I posted months ago listing some significant events in Cuban and North American music.
-David

• 1803 – earliest known Cuban contradanza composition "San Pascual Bailón" First written music to use an African rhythmic motif (tresillo).
• 1836 – earliest published habanera “La Pimienta”, is written.
www.antillania.com/Cuba_Music_Timeline.htm:
“According to preeminent Cuban music historian Alejo Carpentier, the habanera was never called such by the people of Havana (for them it was just the local style of contradanza). It only adopted its present name when it became popular outside of Cuba.”
• 1860 - Inspired by the habanera and Caribbean music in general, New Orleans composer L.M. Gottschalk uses the tresillo figure in his “Night in the Tropics” and other compositions.
• 1874 - Georges Bizet uses the habanera in his opera “Carmen”
• 1879 – first written danzon ("Las alturas de Simpson”) This is the first written music to use clave as the governing rhythmic principle.
• 1896 – first written ragtime/cakewalk composition
www.class.uh.edu/mintz/places/music-webresources.html:
‘The "cakewalk" rhythm probably derived from the habanera.’
• 1896 (?) – Buddy Bolden’s band begins playing in New Orleans. from: www.redhotjazz.com/buddy.html
The “big four”, the first syncopated bass drum pattern to deviate from the standard on-the-beat march is credited to Bolden. from: Wynton Marsalis “Jazz” Vol 1. 2000
The “big four” contains the ritmo de tango, a rhythmic motif of the habanera and an embelishment of tresillo.
• 1915 - “Jelly Roll Blues” by Jelly Roll Morton is believed by many to be the first written jazz composition.
• 1917 - First jazz recording: “Livery Stable Blues” by Original Dixieland Jass Band (ODJB)
• 1925 – The son group Septeto Habanero records for RCA
• 1926 - Louis Armstrong makes the first recording under his own name.
• 1927 - Ignacio Piñeiro, leader of the Septeto Nacional, adds the trumpet to the son.
• 1933 Cuban musician Mario Bauzá joins the Chick Webb band as a trumpeter, where he’s thoroughly educated in the African-American artform. Webb told Bauzá that he “played with a Cuban accent” and personally tutored Bauzá in the subtleties of jazz phrasing.
• 1943 – Mario Bauza composes the first true Afro-Cuban jazz, Latin jazz composition “Tanga” for Machito and his Afro-Cubans in NYC. Jazz, the son and clave are wedded together for the first time.
According to author Max Salazar, the landmark piece began as a descarga (jam session), spontaneously created on-the-spot. - “The Beginning and Its Best" by Max Salazar, Latin Beat Magazine (February 1997 Vol. 7, No. 1)
• 1945 – R&B pioneer Johnny Otis hires the Miguelito Valdés rhythm section for an Afro-Cuban/R&B experiment on US Armed Forces Radio. This perhaps marks the beginning of a long use of Cuban instruments and musical motifs in R&B, R&R, soul, funk and hip-hop.
Later Johnny Otis fuses clave with R & B in "Willie and the Handjive".
• 1947 - Bauzá introduces Dizzy Gillespie to Cuban conguero Chano Pozo initiating a brief but fruitful collaboration. Some of the famous tunes from the Gillespie/Pozo collaboration include "Cubana Be, Cubana Bop," "Tin Tin Deo" and "Manteca", all of which are jazz standards today.
• 1950-52 – New Orleans musician Dave Bartholomew uses tresillo as a fundamental motif in early proto-R&R pieces like “Country Boy”. Bartholomew identified Cuban tumbaos as the source of this motif.
• 1955 – Richard Berry takes the Cuban hit “El loco cha-cha-cha”, creates his own English lyrics and comes up with the R&R classic “Louie Louie”. This common son chord progression becomes a staple in R&R: “Hang on Sloopie”, “Wild Thing”, etc.

[congamyk]

So again, I do question your 90% data.

Question all you want to, all of the chords and melodies used in American music are based in the European music system, all played on exclusively European instruments using European language (English). That alone makes it roughly 90% easily but I'm not counting.

I've heard all of the "pentatonic" allegories and it's laughable at best. The Europeans (alone) created the chord, mode and melody system we use today, I don't care how politically incorrect it sounds, it's true. Every culture has had some kind of music system in place and even Asian music could be said to resemble some forms of American music. I've also heard the "African call and response" theory related to jazz and that's just shear stupidity. EVERY culture USES call and response techniques in their music, not just Africans.

PS Whack politics? Wow you're really going out on a limb here. Where the hell in this forum have I EVER mentioned politics! Or my political affiliation! For all you know I could be a die-hard southern christian conservative republican.

You're politics exposed again. All of these threads end up becoming liberal hate-the-white-people threads. What a joke. Move to another country with Michael Moore.

[pcastag]

Hate the white people? What are you talking about, where have I EVER said anything denegrating about white people as a race EVER. Don't jump to conclusions mr. conga myk, it's becoming very obvious to me you have an inferiority complex.
PC

[pcastag]

Interesting, I myself have not done any serious research on teh subject, yet iy does appear to me as if you are making some assumptions. I'm not saying I don't agree with you, just some clarifying questions and observations.

What evidence is there if habaneras being popular in 1800's America?

How can you be sure that the 1860's composition was influenced by Cuban music, was it stated? Or does it just sound similar to habaneras that were popular at the time?

"Clave" in brazillian music has always been present in the samba schools, it does have a different motif, and yes was never called clave, just as the original 6/8 west african bell pattern that undeniably was the source for clave was never called clave. However the patterns of the rhythms of the samba schools most definitely line up to synch with a two bar repeating syncopated phrase. In addition, the 6/8 bell pattern is also present in the atabaque music of candomble as it is through much of the African diaspora.

It would be interesting ( though unlikely to find any) to listen to recordings of NO mardi gras and funeral brass bands pre 1940's when you state the cuban influence became apparant.

Again, not denying the influence or impact of Cuban music, obviously Cuban music has had a tremendous impact here and aboroad, I've just never heard of the worldwide popularity of the habanera before, AND I've never really examined the possiblity of cuban muic imfluencing early NO jazz musicians.
PC