Playing with Drummers - What should they play?

[Diceman]

Pilgrims,

I play in a few latin jazz outfits with various drummers and when it comes to the latin section of a song, they usually start to play the two conga part, because they have probably been taught to simulate that part.

Now I know kit isnt part of a traditional latin setup, but can anyone throw any drum ideas into the ring so I can give them something to compliment the conga part rather than copy?

Any help would be appreciated, brothers

Suave
Diceman

[CongaTick]

Dice,
The pros will give you specific advice. Just a personal footnote: Been trying to put together jazz-funk-latin fusion style group. Just had to get rid of drummer after first tryout. Offended him apparently when I asked him to play with a "bit more finesse", and see if we could connect on a complimentary groove. New drummer trying out next week who claims to have played with percussionists. I'm finding out that finding the "right" drummer ain't easy if you're a conguero.

[JohnnyConga]

Well the process of finding a "knowledgable" drummer that understands and can play a variety of styles including, Latin drumming on drumset, can be hard to find.....of course some will be offended, cause there weakenesses have been exposed. so before u bring one in I would ask first how much experience, they have in "latin' style drumset playing, and have they ever played alongside a conga drummer....just my recommendation....unless you yourself play drumset there is nothing you can tell a drummer,what and how to play. "JC" Johnny Conga...

[Quinto Governor II]

What about the bell parts and clave, and cascara? Let him check out David Garibaldi on the 'Talking Drum' video.

[OLSONGO]

I also play drums, usually you play the shaker part on the hi- hat, the cascara or clave on a wood block, accentuate with the bass drum , but it all depends the rhythm you are playing at the time. If it's a conga, you have to move the bass drum, and play the bell parts, if it's samba you play , the ganza on the hi- hat , agogo on a bell, caixa parts on the snare, and surdo parts on the bass drum. Or you can also take the snares out , and play the timbale parts on the snare.
It all varies and how creative you can be.
Also pay a lot of attention on the dynamics, very important.
But what I do recomned is a lot of listening.
There is this bro in NY , Dafnis Prieto he plays bata parts on the trap set.

my 2 smacks

Paz Olsongo

[CongaTick]

Prieto is AMAZING!! A true trap set master in Latin styling.

[Tonio]

The trap dummer I played with played the cascara on the side of his toms or hi hats, and played the clave on a bell. Otherwise he would use snare /tom for the timbale licks to support the melody , ponce and transitional breaks. essentially a timbalero with some added ruffs/fills. Kick drum was more for accents for typical mambo, cha cha etc.
Brazilian stuff he played more traditional drum kit stuff (but less on toms)in a modern context -if that makes sense, while I played usual percussion stuff (mainly congas).
6/8 stuff we tried to keep it the same but he added more of a rock" feel". Outstanding drummer. There are (or used to be) a few more in town that was awesome, but they seem to dwindle for more mecca areas, since San Diego is rather conservative or local band gigs.
You have to be able to talk to the drummer to establish what the role is. Even though it may seem boring to a regualr drummer, it brings out the strength in virtuosity, independance, and adaptability. Without proactive studies in our realm, they will just be rock drummers. Some jazz drummers can do it with some guidance, but most fall into the mimicing like you have witnessed.
I suggest if you find one thats is half way there, to initiate him /her with good material to study-if they are a quick study. Any good drummer should be able to assimilate to a degree.
Otherwise keep looking.

resourse: Afro Cuban drumming cro drumset by Frank Malabe and Bob weiner. Manhattan Musi c pubs. More on the sense of relating the percussion parts to drums, but the role parts can be broken down.
T

[jorge]

A lot of trap drummers don't have a clue how to play with congas and stay in clave. If they are good drummers, they can probably learn some basics from listening to Cuban drummers playing with congas, and do a credible job on a few songs. I suggest giving them some CDs to listen to. For example, Changuito plays some killer songo on traps with early Van Van (Tu Tranquilo, Guarare), recent Pupy y Los que Son Son (the song De la Timba a Pogolotti on the Mi Timba Cerra CD, not on the CD called De la Timba a Pogolotti, also there are lots of other good songs by Pupy), recent Van Van with Samuel Formell on drums, NG la Banda (Santa Palabra, great percussion arrangement by Giraldo Piloto). Check out recordings by other drummers that play well with congas including Ignacio Berroa, Steve Berrios, Jimmy Branly (check out his traps solo on track 7 of Rebeca Mauleon's Descarga en California), and Jesus Diaz. Some of the other new timba recordings have good trap drummers. From a jazz perspective, Horacio El Negro Hernandez, Dafnis Prieto, Ignacio Berroa, Steve Berrios, and others play some nice jazz styles heavily based on Cuban rhythms.

By playing CDs for him (or her), you can show your drummer how the traps fit with the congas, how they both fit with the clave and the coros (if you are playing in clave), and how much restraint it takes for it all to sound good without the drums and congas playing on top of each other. No f***ing way that stuff is boring for the drummer, on the contrary, it may be so hard for them that they can't get it right, so they feel bored.



Edited By jorge on 1190346365

[Diceman]

Thanks all,

I appreciate your pearls of wisdom, and guidance, and It is heartening to know that I am not alone in the quest for the complimentary drummer.
CT, JC, Olsongo, Tonio and Jorge, thanks again for your insights, I now have some new strategies for dealing with the challenge.
I'll let you know how it works out.

suave

[pavloconga]

Hi guys,
As well as Frankie Malabe's stuff, another great resource I have found is Ed Uribe's 'Essence of Afro Cuban Percussion & Drum set' (Warner Bros. Publications). Comes with 2 CDs. Plenty of good stuff for drum kit in there.
ciao
pavlo

[TONE74]

I saw this guy live once in Cuba and thought he was pretty good. I've seen a few bands and the conga and drums never seem to affect each other in a negative way as a matter of fact it is pretty common. They let it all out and it still sounds good. Gives it more energy in my opinion. This one has timbales, conga, and kit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o505NNzv0TI

[congamyk]

^ Notice that drummer is taking EVERY SINGLE FILL for himself. It's like the timbale player and conga don't exist. Typical drummer IMO.


I use Fruity Loops and build my own kits.

That gives you a perfect tempo and palette to play with, keeps the stage free from clutter and there's no (drummer) clanging cymbals and doing triple fills every 4 bars.



Edited By congamyk on 1190780686

[OLSONGO]

The most important thing is communication, if you look at the material at hand and talk about it, there should be no problems. If the drummer has very little experience playing with a hand percussionist in the band, he needs to study and get tight before he can approach the rhythm to be played. I personally am at the point where the drummers that I usually play with , have known their stuff for years so it is always a lot of fun. In Latin Jazz you got to have a drummer that can also swing and improvise, to give it that strong element of traditional Jazz. I believe that music is a social thing, so the more musicians the better, depending on the budget; drum machines are for smooth jazzers, discos and Djs .

Paz Olsongo

[Diceman]

Congamyk, I have to agree with you on the 'fills' territory, but I am trying to avoid the sampled/midi route as I always prefer working with live musicians.

suave

[CongaTick]

Tone, I have to agree with Congamyk. The video --to me--reinforces my observation. In this video the congas are a distant, almost superfluous element because of the drummer's domination. Certainly the conguero would have been helped with a set of mics, but the drummer -with his playing style--would have still overwhelemed. Finesse and a compulsion to listen to the rest of the memebers and help blend percussion and trap is (my 2 centacos) the goal.