slap technic - needs help

[blango]

Sandy Perez has little hands, strong as iron, but small. He has the fattest tone, with the rim hitting in the center of his palm, i believe. Ill have to look again.

Trevino Leon, on the other hand, has very long hands and has to play requinto like the enu' of an Ito'tele, if he used most of his hand, he'd be beyond the center of the skin.

Babatunde Lea, who studied with Giovanni, told me to use most of my hand to develop a fatt tone. Im not sure if he got that from Giovanni or not, but he was insistant on the idea. by the way, the slaps and muff are in the same position.

As far as reworking technique, it was an old dog new trick thing for me, i guess.

Tony



Edited By blango on 1196271342

[ticoloco]

??? hello everyone thanks so much for so many replys on the slap technique issue very very helpfull. i like to coment on the palm -tip tech. vs. the heel -toe. as you probably do like a do. whem your are at stop lite lisenting to tunes you start druming on the dashboard and i notices i was not using my heel at all but, something closer to a palm- tip tech. and it felt more rythmic, better flow and better timing. i could not wait to get home and try it on the drum using the heel-toe tech.
but, it was not working. my inner voice was telling me i was onto something but, at same time could not ingnore what i had been tough so far. so is very refreshing to learn from you guys this new style and also reinforce the fact the we should trust our inner voices more.

thanks again. this site is like a gold mine for me
i feel blessed to be a part of it. is like having and extended family.

que viva nuestra musica
ps. sorry about my spelling.

ticoloco

[pavloconga]

Hey guys,
thanks for the feedback!

I haven't seen the Tomas Cruz dvds but I have heard they are really great so they are worth getting for sure. Also Changuito's 'Evolution of the Tumbadoras' is great. Some really good technique stuff in there.

A few questions/comments to respond to:

Mike: "The only thing I´m wondering are the thumbs.
Is it not wiser to keep it away while slapping or is it really a necessary integral part of the slap? Could be quite painful..."

Depending on what you are playing, there are times when it's safe to have your thumbs there. There are other times when you risk injury and should definitely have them out of the way. As far as thumb position it really depends on what you are playing and how hard. It is not part of the slap as such, but it may be there at times just to guide the hand if you are playing a section where you don't have to play with a lot of force.

blango: 'According to my teachers, Babatunde Lea (studied with Giovanni) and Sandy Perez, Pavlo's technique for these slaps is almost perfect. I would only add that the hand should be almost entirely flat, and ive been taught to use more of my hand, with the rim hitting the center of my palm, but its almost nit picking.'

Yes, there can be even less gap. I just played a little now and watched how much gap and I can bring it right down to almost nothing and still get the same slap. Also, yes you are right, the hands can come in a little more than shown. Having said that, there is always some latitude for moving hands further in or further back to find the sweet spot.

Rather than a completely hard and fast rule, "This is the only way to slap and that's it", there is a range at which a good slap sound can be made. We must also take into account differences in size and shape of hands and drums and on top of that there are often stylistic differences between teachers.


blango: Who did you study with in Cuba?
I studied with 3 teachers:
Studied mostly with: Sandalio 'el Macho' Crespo Calderon (see pic below with his thumbs well out of the way..). He was 65 years old at the time - but he out-played all the young cats! We almost always had lessons at the house of Mario 'Chavalonga' Dreke (R.I.P.). Chava was often around and would suggest things, play a part or sometimes sing. Sometimes Chava would show me a few things one to one. As a boy Macho was a student of Chava.
Also studied quite a lot with Guillermo Lopez Clementé from the Folklorico Nacional de Cuba


burke: "I would pay to have you elaborate and give a technical breakdown of tapados. I've searched this forum, brought the subject up as a topic twice now, written to people outside the forum who make passing reference to it and the written to the school you mentioned you learned the correct technique from in Cuba and ripped the internet apart. Other than your one reply (about learning the right way) nothing with any detail."

If you could just give a brief breakdown and maybe some situations its used (sections of various rumba styles - other?"

My understanding of tapados is this:, they are almost same technique as the closed slap but with less force and less sharpness of sound- anything from a very gentle fingers tap to a more forceful tap - but not a full on slap sound. They can function as timekeepers or less emphasised slaps/taps and they add a little more flavor and feel to the rhythm. My understanding is that the tapado is not like the bata drum slap technique at all. Maybe JC can clarify that point.

As far as the rumba slap I'll see if I can put something together soon.

best regards guys
Pavlo



Edited By pavloconga on 1196337424

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... -macho.jpg

[burke]

Pavloconga - can't thank you enough!
and looking forward to what you have to offer on Rumba Slap

[blango]

Pavlo,

Woah.... Sr. Calderon.... man are you fortunate. Love to hear any stories you have about him and your experience there. I bet you feel blessed.

Re: the bata connection -

Pavlo - "the tapado is not like the bata drum slap technique at all"

Yes, i agree. But the Matanzas style is full of these time keeping taps (also called tapado, if im not mistaken), as well as thunderous slaps with similar technique to the 'rumba slap'.

re technique for a slap, yes, find your sweet spot, sing your song. or as Jimmy says, waive your freak flag high! :laugh:

But dont go too far astray... as most of the top players do have textbook technique, in my experience. But who knows, perhaps there is a new technique just around the corner. I always remember the fosbury flop, in these cases...

Tony

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... -image.jpg

[burke]

Hey Blango,

That kinda echos a point I've made before - namely it seems that a lot of cats who say there is only one correct/traditional way to do a technique or execute a rhyme fail to recognize that,

A. This stuff is constantly changing/evolving and

B. Most of it ain't that old in the grand scheme of things in the first place. I mean how old is mambo, cha cha. & Songo 60 years? Maybe less?

I’m not talking about drumming or the African antecedents here but the ‘modern’ tradition.

About one cents worth

Darrell.

[pavloconga]

Pavlo,

Woah.... Sr. Calderon.... man are you fortunate. Love to hear any stories you have about him and your experience there. I bet you feel blessed.

re technique for a slap, yes, find your sweet spot, sing your song. or as Jimmy says, waive your freak flag high! :laugh:

But dont go too far astray... as most of the top players do have textbook technique, in my experience. But who knows, perhaps there is a new technique just around the corner. I always remember the fosbury flop, in these cases...

Tony

hi tony, darrell and all,
Thanks for your comments.
Re the slap technique. Check out Macho's hand positions, the angle of his hands, especially his left hand (he was left handed) and the gap between his hand and the drum head. He was playing when I shot this.

His technique is probably a little unconventional, quite different to many other players. Yet his technique was perfect, with amazing crispness, volume and distinction between sounds and it suited his hands and his playing style. He could make sounds from that drum that I could not imagine could be made. His slaps were thunderous, even scarey. This guy is seriously experienced and with a depth of knowledge that is rare.

Usually when he played, a lot of the young dudes would come and watch him. He was held in very high regard in his neighbourhood. No one would ever mess with him - he wasn't called Macho for nothin'!

He plays with a group called 'Aguiri Yo' and and also occasionally guests with Clavé y Guaguanco on quinto. I saw him play with them at the 'Wemilere Festival' in Havana.

I have so many stories about Macho!

cheers
pavlo



Edited By pavloconga on 1196397114

[Mike]

Hi pavlo,
thanks a lot for sharing all this experience with us.
One side remark: I was astonished to see how high the rim on El Macho´s tumbadora is. So no chance of cupped-handed slaps anyway at all...
TBH I find learning the totally flat-handed slap rather difficult. When I practice on my quinto, which has got a rim in rather high position, it´s OK, but on conga - wheeew, sh.. , there´s still a lot practice work to do for me.

mike

[Bachikaze]

This is a very good thread. I think it would be very useful for people who visit the Technique, Rhythms and Exercises forum. Can this be moved there?

[pavloconga]

As promised, here are 2 basic little demo clips, showing a few riffs with the rumba slap, closed slaps, fills, muffs etc used in the context of playing a few phrases.

I apologise in advance for the sound and image quality - it was recorded in a hurry on a camera phone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA5e0CerAwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V619o7hdkGk



Edited By pavloconga on 1197019136

[guarachon63]

Not much I can add to all this great advice, except maybe that I was taught that your fingers should be relaxed and just sort of "fall" into place on the drum. Keeping this in mind seemed to help me. I began to think of it as sort of like snapping your fingers, recreating that motion your finger makes as it lands on the heel of your thumb.

I would like to emphasize a very important point someone else already made: Focus on the TONE of the slap, and not the VOLUME. Many people just play too damn loud without any sense of musicality.

And along the same lines, I would add: Be sure you know what the slaps are supposed to sound like! I remember when first getting into rumba I was trying so hard to get the sound of those sharp, crisp slaps I heard in some muñequitos recordings, only to realize later they were made on cajon! LOL

saludos

[Garvin]

When I actually take time to slow down and work on technique (which I should just do for a year solid) I tune my tumba waaay down until it's almost dead and just work slap, tone for as long as I can stand it. The idea is to be able to get clear tones and slaps from the dead drum. I think I was taught that by one of my teachers who studied with John Amira in Arcada CA a while back. Or maybe it was off of a video somewhere. Anyway, after a good 15-20 minutes of work on the dead tumba, I really feel a difference in my hands in terms of how I'm making contact. I feel like my hand is a lot more relaxed and at the same time stronger. This is just one more little exercise to try in the never ending quest for the elusive "perfect" technique. Pavloconga, your videos and pictures are spot on in terms of how I've been taught. Great info as always.