"Comfort" vs. "Classic" Rims - Why are there two styles?

[umannyt]

Id like to see a hybrid, something like Del Cielo's crown, when he was making drums. Traditional crowns design is very strong and rarely bend, if not the most ergonomic.

Tony,

Just couldn't resist making this brief response: The crown of the now DW-owned Gon Bops California Series, Tumbao Custom Pro and Tumbao Pro are considered hybrid. The steel rim is still solid, but it has a half-round cross-section to eliminate any sharp edges.

Hope this helps,



Edited By umannyt on 1198224757

[congamyk]

From the Meinl Percussion website: http://meinlpercussion.com/product....te.html

"All of Luis’ needs have been met and exceeded with the MEINL Artist Series Luis Conte Signature Congas. They combine the charm and sound of the old traditional Cuban drums with modern features and innovations. The congas are equipped with traditional rims, are mounted as close to the shell as possible, and when combined with MEINL’s True Skin Buffalo Heads, they enable an even more controlled sound".

Meinl's website marketing propaganda doesn't convince me of anything. I've played their drums and I'm not impressed.

There are several steps involved in the comfort curve process also. Including stainless coating. I'm not convinced that the extra welds on traditional rims makes them more expensive. And add in the extra amount of materials used in comfort curves and this is a wash.

Comfort curves are a great idea, that's why the major brands use them on their drums. But the main point is - there is no noticeable difference in sound. This is evident in that all the pros play and record with them.

[Omelenko]

Comfort rims are a turn off. I like the traditional Cuban look, with traditonal crown and outter bands. What Gonzalo Vergara created in La Habana in the 50's. The tradition has been maintained by Junior Tirado,Jay Bereck and Matt Smith. That's the type of conga that turns me on. Other turn offs for me are gold plated hardware and black oxide.

If you have your "tumbao" down packed, a traditional rim is the way to go. My 2 cents.

Dario

[umannyt]

Meinl's website marketing propaganda doesn't convince me of anything. I've played their drums and I'm not impressed.

There are several steps involved in the comfort curve process also. Including stainless coating. I'm not convinced that the extra welds on traditional rims makes them more expensive. And add in the extra amount of materials used in comfort curves and this is a wash.

Comfort curves are a great idea, that's why the major brands use them on their drums. But the main point is - there is no noticeable difference in sound. This is evident in that all the pros play and record with them.

Mike,

It's very interesting that you are very quick in dismissing Meinl's blurb about their Luis Conte model as being "marketing propaganda". And, yet, you seem to have unquestionably swallowed LP's own marketing blurbs "hook, line and sinker". Nothing personal, but do I sense a bias and a lack of objectivity here somewhere?

As far as which production process is more expensive or cheaper (comfort rims vs. traditional rims), you can speculate all you want. I was actually just trying to be modest when I mentioned that I "merely" worked for my parents' (actually our family-owned) 100-employee OEM car-parts manufacturing corporation in the Philippines. I was actually it's General Manager for about 7 years prior to my arriving and reluctantly deciding to settle with my American wife here in the U.S. I'm very familiar with stamping (w/o welding) vs. non-stamping (w/ welding) process. We used it ourselves--all the time--in our manufacturing processes.

And, whether you believe me or not, I strongly believe that I can say with both authority and experience that (just focusing on comfort rims and traditional rims only) comfort rims are cheaper to mass-produce in the longrun than traditional rims. The cost difference in materials is minimal (most traditional rims are chrome-plated too). But, the cost of additional labor of having to weld/rivet 6 ears per rim, not to mention having to weld the 2 ends of each rim, would be more significant.

That comfort rims are "a great idea" as you've said is very much debatable. I've already argued that major brands have used them (and continue to use them) PRIMARILY with beginners (and also those with bad drumming techniques) in mind--to minimize hurting their hands as they learn to play congas (or bongos) and not turn them off from keeping and/or buying congas. However, some of the trade offs are: extra weight, potential ringing sound due to the built-in sound chamber underneath and skins are more difficult to change. I intentionally didn't mention appearance (for and against) 'cause this is a highly subjective matter.

Have you ever wondered why they're called "comfort" rims rather than, say, "mushroom" rims. Which dept. do you think came up with the name "comfort"? You can bet your bottom dollar that it's those marketing honchos--the same people who come up with all those very attractive, glossy brochures and advertising copies that promise you almost everything under heaven.

Case in point: From from an LP brochure--"LP Galaxy Giovanni Series Congas are among the FINEST wood congas ever created." What? A 3-PLY (not even solid stave) conga made "only" of North American Ash wood and with a gold-plated (hmmm) comfort rim being claimed to be among the finest wood congas ever created? Is this marketing hype? I clearly think so.

As I've said earlier, that pros play and record with them is a "non sequitur" (i.e., the conclusion does not logically or necessarily follow from the assumptions) argument that comfort rims are their first choice. A big dollar endorsement deal is such a very hard carrot to resist. But, you can be sure that the terms of these endorsement deals are very strict, if not onerous (mostly favoring the paying company). And, once a pro has signed on the dotted line, violating the terms of his/her endorsement deal would not be a very wise thing to do--from both his/her pocket's point of view and his/her professional reputation. I should know something about the legal ramifications: I was half-way through earning a law degree during the 90s. (Ever wondered why I'm so verbose in my writings?)

At this point, I propose that we civilly agree to disagree about comfort rims vs. traditional rims. You have your strong opinions and I have mine.

But, let me just conclude with this thought: I'd grant that MOST (not all) the top-of-the-line models of the major conga manufacturers (for "comfort" and cost reasons I've already stated) do use comfort rims rather than traditional rims. I'd call these the Lexus, Acuras and Infinitis of the conga world. (Btw, note that their cheapest models ALSO mostly use comfort rims also rather than traditional rims.)

But, what about the Rolls Royces, Bentleys, Mercedes Benzes, Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Porsches (the "creme de la creme": Vergaras, Matthew Smiths, Juniors, Skin on Skins, Islas, Mopercs, Volcanos, Gon Bops, Timba, etc.) of the conga world? It's evident that ALL of them have used and continue to use traditional rims and NONE of them have switched over to comfort rims, specifically with their top-of-the-line models.

But, even without mentioning this hard fact, why do you think that practically all of the major conga manufacturers, especially when they moved their manufacturing operations to Thailand and started using indigenous materials (rubber wood and buffalo skins), switched to comfort rims when all of them used traditional rims in the past?

Don't you see the common denominator for all of these? Is it love and passion for the historical and much-revered (even sacred to some) "tumbadora"? Is it genuine concern for you and me? To me, it would be the height of naivette to think so. The reality is that profits and competition are what mainly drive their corporate decisions, particularly when the executives at the top (such as with Kaman Corp.) who call all the shots are non-musician lawyers, accountants or engineers.



Edited By umannyt on 1198280453

[bongosnotbombs]

Most serious players that I have met are more interested in the rhythms than the drum.
Most of the guys I know, man of them great drummers, use your regular LP from the music store. I never hear any real big difference.

But I know the comfort rims are easier and cheaper to make, thats for certain. They are a good design though (except on bongos).

The custom guys will make traditional rims because they don't have that machine to stamp out curved rims. Lp and others will stamp out the curved rims and make more affordable congas. Everybody wins.

Material costs are cheap, especially steel. Do we even know for a fact that comfort rims are heavier and possibly use more material? Maybe someone could weigh a couple of crowns.



Edited By bongosnotbombs on 1198276776

[blango]

Manny,

Yea, like those! The new gonbops, yes. Thanks. I like that design. It looks very similar to Del Cielos shape too.

Tony

[umannyt]

Most of the guys I know, man of them great drummers, use your regular LP from the music store...

The custom guys will make traditional rims because they don't have that machine to stamp out curved rims. Lp and others will stamp out the curved rims and make more affordable congas. Everybody wins.

Material costs are cheap, especially steel. Do we even know for a fact that comfort rims are heavier and possibly use more material? Maybe someone could weigh a couple of crowns.

I agree, but with some qualification: Many great drummers (without endorsement contracts) use regular mass-produced congas with comfort rims obviously because there's really not much choice. Most top-of-the-line mass produced congas have comfort rims. Unlike in the past, prior to the introduction of comfort rims, when all mostly we had were congas with traditional rims, the market is now saturated with comfort-rimmed congas. I say, blame this on competition.

For the most part, to get congas with traditional rims nowadays, one has to go for mid-line models (Meinl Luis Conte and Toca Traditional), a few top-of-the-line semi-mass-produced congas (Meinl Woodcraft Series and Gon Bops California Series) or the very expensive custom congas.

That custom guys make traditional rims because they don't have the machine to stamp out comfort rims is simply the practical reality. These guys just don't generate sufficient volume of production to justify investing in very expensive machinery such as a stamping machine and recouping the investment.



Edited By umannyt on 1198281437

[umannyt]

Manny,

Yea, like those! The new gonbops, yes. Thanks. I like that design. It looks very similar to Del Cielos shape too.

Tony

Tony,

Yeah, I really like the both the design and function of the Gon Bops hybrid rims. They're very sleek, sexy and cleverly designed based on the Valje-inspired Sol Percussion crown design by Akbar Moghaddam, I think.

[Bachikaze]

Since I'm the ignorant guy who posed the original question, I can't add much expertise to this thread. But I'm glad it started a dialog/debate because I'm learning a lot. Some reflections on what's been written:

It seems that not too many comments have been made that actually say that comfort rims are inferior to traditional. No one has said that they hinder good play. The closest I've seen is that traditional rims sound better, and support for that seems theoretical and difficult to substantiate. The other practical case against them is changing the heads. Fortunately, we don't have to do that often.

Another thing I wanted to address is the idea that they are for beginners and people who don't know correct technique. May I assume, then, that if my palms contact the rims, I am playing poorly? I don't know if my hands hit the rims myself, but, ironically, my comfort rims actually contribute to me hurting my hands. My palms do contact the edge of the cowhide. This edge is exposed by the comfort rims, but would be covered by traditional.

I do agree that the name "comfort rim" is an advertising ploy, but there don't seem to be too many practical negatives to them. Like many here, I prefer the appearance of traditional, but I also appreciate the comfort rims of my Bauers when I want to pause and rest my hands.

Is it possible that some players prefer traditional rims due, at least in part, to a kind of snobbishness?

My favorite comment made in this thread was by bongosnotbombs. A good player uses their skill to produce good sounds. One of these good players makes my Aspires sound better than I can make my Bauers sound.



Edited By Bachikaze on 1198290625

[umannyt]

May I assume, then, that if my palms contact the rims, I am playing poorly? I don't know if my hands hit the rims myself, but, ironically, my comfort rims actually contribute to me hurting my hands.

Is it possible that some players prefer traditional rims due, at least in part, to a kind of snobbishness?

My favorite comment made in this thread was by bongosnotbombs. A good player uses their skill to produce good sounds. One of these good players makes my Aspires sound better than I can make my Bauers sound.

Bachikaze,

I don't think that contacting the rims while playing is necessarily playing poorly, as long as it happens only occasionally. I, myself, do contact the rims of my Islas from time to time. This is not to say that I'm claiming to be an expert conga player, already. By no means! However, I believe that I play well enough to meet the percussion needs of the music that my bands play, not to mention their vocal needs. A clear proof of this is that I still have my job with them. LOL!

If you're hurting your hands hitting comfort rims, try hitting the edge of traditional rims. I can almost guarantee you that it'll hurt more. I know 'cause my beater congas are Toca fiberglass with comfort rims.

With me at least, it used to hurt much more in the beginning that it does now. I believe that over time both my hands have developed the necessary callouses to protect it from further pain. The body is an awesome machine indeed!

Do some players prefer traditional rims partly out of snobbishness? Perhaps. But, I think my conscience is clean enough for me to say that I'm definitely not one of them. I can't afford to be one.

Re: BNB's comment that a good player uses their skill to produce good sounds, I agree--but only to a certain degree. This statement is quite relative and, IMO, can be overblown. Why and how? It really depends on what the variables are. A good player cannot make miracles out of poor equipment. The sound of every level of congas has its inherent limitations and a good player can, in truth, produce only so much beautiful sound out of it. And if we keep variable of employing a good player constant or fixed, given a superior (e.g., Matthew Smith) and inferior conga (e.g. LP Aspire), the same player should produce better sounds with the superior conga than with the inferior conga.

It all goes back to the need to compare apples with apples and not apples with oranges in order to come up with a fair and sensible comparison.

I hope that I've added some more common sense and logic to this thread.



Edited By umannyt on 1198292621

[congamyk]

If there's no difference in sound, then all of this is a moot point. And the sound difference just isn't there. If someone prefers the look and feel of traditional rims - great! But we shouldn't act as though comfort curve drums are inferior. It's all about aesthetic preference.

It's very interesting that you are very quick in dismissing Meinl's blurb about their Luis Conte model as being "marketing propaganda". And, yet, you seem to have unquestionably swallowed LP's own marketing blurbs "hook, line and sinker". Nothing personal, but do I sense a bias and a lack of objectivity here somewhere?

Manny, there's no need for personal attack. I've never quoted anything from LP. Do you understand that? I did say that I don't believe there's a sound difference which Meinl's website implied. Think about it a minute and stop overreacting.

That comfort rims are "a great idea" as you've said is very much debatable.

It's not debatable at all. Every major pro conga label uses them for 95% of all of their pro congas lines. One might say it's the most widely used new idea in decades since every manufacturer now uses them.

I've already argued that major brands have used them (and continue to use them) PRIMARILY with beginners (and also those with bad drumming techniques)

I disagree, and what you say is very condescending. All of the makers that use the comfort curve do so on their PRO lines. It's short sighted to say they are for beginners and those with bad bad drumming technique. Better ask Gio and Changuito about that.

Vergaras, Matthew Smiths, Juniors, Skin on Skins, Islas, Mopercs, Volcanos, Gon Bops, Timba, etc.) of the conga world? It's evident that ALL of them have used and continue to use traditional rims and NONE of them have switched over to comfort rims, specifically with their top-of-the-line models.

These small shops make congas by hand, one at a time. I think it's great for them to continue to use the traditional rims! But that argument doesn't apply to this context because the business models are different. It wouldn't make sense for them to (1) change their business model and (2) make a huge investment in the capability to mass produce (pour) comfort curve rims, so they continue doing the traditional rims by hand.

[Isaac]

My two cents on comfort rims - I don't care for them, I'm biased toward the traditional..but here's a few other thoughts
on the topic.

1. The large hollow space inside the rim creates a ringing sound chamber that alters the way the instrument should ideally sound.
2. If the idea that hitting your wrist on the round smooth rim is supposed to be more "comfortable" than it's misleading
to beginners and can cause bad nerve damage. I feel it's a marketing ploy and quicker/easier to mass produce.
3. Instrument companies are big business and they're entitled to make money,
They're not trying to go into museums with their creations. They must show a profit to their investors. They must create instruments for the masses not only the connaiseurs. There's a bigger market for student model drums and kids instruments.
The latin segment of the business is only a small part of their overall market. I wish it was growing more.
4. How many small time artisans make a decent living? How many stay in business...it's a struggle. Look at
what happened to Sol, Timba and the original Gon Bops (not the big company that bought their brand name).
Those that survive, are just surviving. The costs of strong steel are escalating yearly, good wood also.
Their tenacity is because they love what they do, not for the money.
5. Endorsers will play what they're given. Just notice that you never see them twice with the exact same gear.
There's not the big bucks in it as you may think, but it does help promote one's career and name,
and a big plus - you don't have to tour and bring your own gear - it's set up for you wherever you go for you (when it's run correctly).
6. Endorsers I know have admitted liking a certain handcrafted instrument better, but must leave it at home,
or run afoul of their contractual agreement...but as they often add with a wink "you didn't hear that from me!"
If you're good enough that a company is giving you their instruments - you'd be be very happy to take them
without complaining. More power to them. I respect their acheivement.
4. Finally , if you already know how to play well, it makes less of a difference. At that level it's all about your sound,
swing & sabor, and the original voice you add to the song...which is after all what it's all about.

~ ISAAC

Percussionist / Sale Rep. JCR Percussion Co.

[yambu321]

MERRY CHRISTMAS, AND HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!!!!

I DO AGREE WITH BONGOSNOTBOMBS ABOUT THE NEW GON BOPS CROWNS, ON BOTH THE CONGAS AND BONGO'S. I HAVE PERSONALLY PLAYED THE NEW FULL SET OF CA SERIES CONGAS AT MY LOCAL GUITAR CENTER FOR ALMOST EVERY WEEKEND FOR CLOSE TO EIGHT MONTHS BEFORE THEY WERE SOLD. I HAVE BOUGHT THE BONGO'S AND THEY ARE TOPS!!! THE CONGAS ARE ALSO WOW, TOPS!!! BUT I HAVE OPTED FOR ISLA PERCUSSIONS INSTEAD, BECAUSE ISLA HAS WHAT I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR, FOR YEARS; JUST STRAIGHT UP AUTHENTICITY. WITH THAT SAID, GON BOPS HAS IN MY OPINION, THE VERY FINEST CROWN DESIGN IN THE BUSINESS. AKBAR OF THE FORMER COMPANY SOL PERCUSSION, IS THE MAN BEHIND THIS WONDERFUL CROWN DESIGN.

AS FAR AS THE STANDARD COMFORT CURVE CROWN DESIGNS, VS THE TRADITIONAL CROWN DESIGNS GO, I PERSONALLY CANNOT STAND THE COMFORT CURVE CROWNS SPECIALLY ON BONGO'S! I DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT MY HANDS ARE KEPT FURTHER AWAY FROM THE SKIN AND DRUM BECAUSE OF THE OUTWARD BULKINESS. IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE CONGA IS WEARING A LARGE HAT. THE CROWN IN THE TRADITONAL SENSE SHOULD PUT YOU RIGHT THERE WITH THE SKIN AND CLOSE TO THE SHELL. THE COMFORT CURVE CROWNS SHOULD MOSTLY BE FAVORED BY THOSE THAT IN REALITY ARE LIMITED ON THEIR PLAYING SKILLS, AND HURT THEIR HANDS OFTEN. IF YOU ARE TECHNICALLY SOUND IN THE WAY YOU PLAY, YOU WILL NOT HAVE A PROBLEM AT ALL, WITH A TRADITIONAL RIM.

MANY BUYER'S THESE DAYS DON'T HAVE MUCH OF A CHOICE EITHER, BECAUSE NEARLY ALL MASS PRODUCTIONS DRUMS ONLY COME WITH COMFORT STYLE CROWNS.

CHARLIE "EL COQUI" VERDEJO :;):



Edited By yambu321 on 1198326948

[umannyt]

If there's no difference in sound, then all of this is a moot point. And the sound difference just isn't there. If someone prefers the look and feel of traditional rims - great! But we shouldn't act as though comfort curve drums are inferior. It's all about aesthetic preference.

Manny, there's no need for personal attack. I've never quoted anything from LP. Do you understand that? I did say that I don't believe there's a sound difference which Meinl's website implied. Think about it a minute and stop overreacting.

I disagree, and what you say is very condescending. All of the makers that use the comfort curve do so on their PRO lines. It's short sighted to say they are for beginners and those with bad bad drumming technique. Better ask Gio and Changuito about that.

Mike,

Your claim about comfort rims and traditional rims having no difference in sound is your assumption, not mine. Therefore, to me, it's not a moot point.

Also, your claim that the choice between comfort rims and traditional rims is all about aesthetic preference is your assumption, not mine.

To me, it's not about aesthetic preference at all. To me, it's all about function. It's been claimed by others that comfort rims contribute to the ringing of congas. I, personally, have not been able to prove this to myself. Nevertheless, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

So, assuming (for the sake of argument) that comfort rims do contribute to ringing (Meinl seems to imply that Luis Conte himself thinks so) and ringing is an undesirable sound, it therefore logically follows that comfort rims are inferior in function to traditional rims. There's just nothing I can do to prevent this conclusion from being reached.

Personal attack? Didn't I just preface what I said that it's nothing personal. To quote myself verbatim, "NOTHING PERSONAL, but do I sense a bias and a lack of objectivity here somewhere?"

Moreover, I was very careful in using the word "seem" precisely so that I can't be accused of making a CATEGORICAL or DEFINITIVE statement that you did "quote anything from LP". Again, to quote myself verbatim, "And, yet, you SEEM to have unquestionably swallowed LP's own marketing blurbs 'hook, line and sinker'".

Me, overreacting? I merely presented an innocent quote from Meinl and you jumped the gun and immediately labeled it as propaganda. To quote you verbatim, "Meinl's website marketing propaganda doesn't convince me of anything." So, who's really overreacting?

Who's more prone to dish out propaganda: Meinl which has consistently disclosed that they use rubber wood and buffalo skin or LP which has persistently claimed that they use Siam or Asian Oak and rawhide skin? Again, who's really overreacting?

Me, very condescending? Again, to quote myself verbatim, "We overlook the fact that the main reason why comfort rims were introduced were precisely to provide comfort to playing hands and to help prevent hand injury, especially for beginners and even experienced players who may have improper or bad hand playing techniques." What's so condescending about my saying that something was invented and manufactured to prevent hand injury? I never implied that, just because Gio and Changuito use congas that have comfort rims, they have bad drumming technique. That's a "non sequitur" conclusion and you've taken what I said totally out of context. Comfort rims simply weren't designed for them. Again, what's short-sighted and very condescending about that?

I hate to say this but I personally have witnessed and experienced a consistent pattern of you taking what people say out of context and falsely accusing them of several things based on your misunderstanding of what they've said.

Personally, I resent your calling me overreacting and condescending without any valid basis. I'm neither kind of person. Not to brag or pat myself on the shoulder, but people who really know me say that I'm one of the kindest and most considerate persons that they know.

Strictly speaking, I should insist that you owe me an apology for your false accusations against me. But, I won't.

Suffice it for me to say that let's just agree to disagree. And, in the future, I'll do my very best to avoid any more prolonged discussion with you 'cause the issue(s) consistently just get muddied over time.

I rest my case with you,



Edited By umannyt on 1198355771

[umannyt]

Isaac,

Thanks for confirming many of the things I've said about comfort rims vs. traditional rims. Your points make a lot of sense!