Counting

[burke]

I know I've been feeling a need lately in relation to up my reading and theory chops. I have no music training but managed to self teach the basic musical math of quarter notes, time signatures, bar lines etc. But I also get tripped up easily. For example: I'm slowly, painfully working away at Michael Spiro's book and was OK till I came to first example in the "Fix" section which shows one piece of music ending before another - I just could not get what to work until a friend pointed that one was a triplet AND that a triplet is 3 notes (quarter, eight etc) played in the space of two.

My head gets that but it's not any deeper. Same goes for lots of other stuff (swing, syncopation and lots more). Why are rests used some places where it seems a different note value would do the same job?

All this to say I've found a nice little book goes from the basic subdivisions to triplets, complex meter etc. It's called "The Music Kit, Rhyme reader & scorebook"

I just started working my way through it and those like me [not trained an a bit intimidated], its a great resource (and cover downbeats vs upbeats too).

[yoni]

I can't count to save my life, never could, failed miserably at math, big time. Can't read music either, and it hasn't interested me yet in 50 years. But I do play several melodic instruments as well, and other players tell me I have perfect pitch, asking me if their tuning is accurate, when they forget their electronic tuners.

So I seem to have a weird ear and can pick up on most any time signature I hear, odd, even and shifting, and have no trouble playing and improvising within them once I "lock into" the cycle... lucky me.

What I do is try to relax and hear/feel the cycles, or shifting cycles if time signatures change within a certain tune.

I'm not dissing counting by any means, but it simply confuses me and distracts me from the music...

Just sharing some personal experience.

All the best,

Yonatan

http://www.myspace.com/yonatanbarrashi

[Derbeno]

I teach Mambo/Salsa dancing. In the dance world the count is standard and uniform (generally). I suppose it won't be a pretty sight if dancers had a different concept of counting when bodies start colliding.

Few years ago I had the tendency to loose the "count" on the 6/8 bell, after discussion with a fellow musician he passed the method he was thought: 1 2 34 5 6 &
We both knew that 1 was musically correct the rest, not quite. But since then I instantly recognise where in the cycle the bell is.

I agree with David it is merely an aide memoire rather than the mathematical relationship to the music.

Perhaps, as long as you are aware of the two concepts (ie correct count vs convenience count) you could use the convenience count if this proves to be of assistance.

If only some teachers would distinguish the two types of "count"

Example in point; Here is member of Chinitos with his interesting style of "counting" the Rumba clave measure.
http://manleycvenglish.blogspot.com/200 ... esson.html

[Joseph]

I can't count to save my life, never could, failed miserably at math, big time. Can't read music either, and it hasn't interested me yet in 50 years. But I do play several melodic instruments

I’ve seen some of your videos, and there is no doubt as to your musicianship.
I wonder is the majority of stuff you play improvisational, or rehearsed?... obviously from memory, as you don’t read music.
Yes, lucky you: perfect pitch ….and perfect meter….or a natural, inherent sense of timing, or whaddeveryawannacallit.

What I do is try to relax and hear/feel the cycles

I suspect that is what a lot of us do, once we’ve grasped the learned (for some of us…me!) concept of counting, and switch on our inner metronomes.

I agree with David it is merely an aide memoire rather than the mathematical relationship to the music.

Perhaps, as long as you are aware of the two concepts (ie correct count vs convenience count) you could use the convenience count if this proves to be of assistance.

If only some teachers would distinguish the two types of "count"

“Convenience count”….nice turn of the phrase there!
I think you distilled the entire issue of the discussion in the above quote!

[davidpenalosa]

Derbeno,
I think you may have misunderstood me. The 1, 2, 3, 4 count does indeed relate to the mathematical relationships of the music. Structurally speaking, the four primary beats are the foundation of the entire rhythmic matrix, whether you are in 4/4, 6/8 or in-between.

The count to clave is correct in the guarapachangeo video you linked to. I’m not sure what point you were making about that clip.

I have observed that “convenience counts” hold back students in the long run. Such techniques are ultimately inconvenient.

For example, the sixteen-pulse cycle is often counted:

1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+

or

1+2+3+4+1+2+3+4+

In other words, it’s at first easier to count eight beats, rather than the correct four-beat cycle:

1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a

With a twelve-pulse cycle, it’s at first easier to count six beats:

1+2+3+4+5+6+

As with its sixteen-pulse correlative, the correct count is four beats:

1+a2+a3+a4+a

In the actual playing of the music, it all comes down to feeling the music correctly—feeling the various cross-beats and offbeats while grounded. If you want to FEEL the music correctly you have to be grounded to the primary beats. Counting the beats is not necessary of course, but if you are using an incorrect count, you are most likely not feeling the primary beats.

With a twelve-pulse cycle, it’s at first easier to count the six (secondary) beats, rather than the four (primary) beats. However, it’s well worth the effort to ground to the proper referent.

To summarize—both the 6/8 bell and salsa steps are grounded by four primary beats.
-David

[yoni]

Hi Joseph,

I think it's true what you wrote; the majority of us internalize stuff once we learn it. Maybe I was wrong to say I have a "weird ear"... that is, I don't think I have an inherent sense of timing or pitch, I think it just comes from the simple fact that I'm doing music a while now, first pro gig at around age 10 and now I'm 50. And I still screw up and make mistakes now and then, am no machine. And I think there's not much difference in all our "inherent talent"; the more you do something, the better you get, it's that simple. I put no value judgement on art or music, but I've been at music obsessively for decades...

I enjoy most to improvise, I find that spontaneous composition can be most fun and exciting. While music and time signatures are endless, like math, I still like to try to learn new stuff. But I can also get lazy, like anyone.

Here's a link to a band where I sing and play drum set. We never had a real rehearsal (no joke), the tunes are familiar oldies; I enjoy doing "pre-set" stuff too, also in jazz and more, also with complex arrangements.

But this is just old time rock 'n roll and one Caribbean tune (Belafonte's "Coconut Woman"). I never had a drum set lesson (also no joke) and own only a floor tom (which I use as a kick drum), snare, hi-hat and ride - and those stay at the restaurant where we do that gig, as I don't have a car to drag that stuff around (part of the reason I play more darbuka than congas these days). But the studio where we recorded these cover tunes had a nice big drum set, so I decided to have fun and pretend I'm a "real drummer".

I think so much of being able to play comes down to pure confidence (and of course taste, sensitivity, chops, etc.). But confidence is a real biggie, especially for drummers. If I get too self-conscious or at all worried, my playing would go out the window.

But I admit, basic counting is important for starters.
In these tunes, I did learn to count, up to the number 4.
They're all in 4/4.
Hope you enjoy!

http://www.myspace.com/kostizaband

[Derbeno]

Derbeno,
I have observed that “convenience counts” hold back students in the long run. Such techniques are ultimately inconvenient.
-David

David, your sentence above made me laugh out loud, how right you are. It would indeed confuse an aspiring student.

Re the Guarapachnageo clip, he counts; un, dos, then treeeeees, cautro. with the "tres" being extended and the "cautro" being quite truncated to fit in the cycle. I looked at it agian on your prompting, it is indeed correct even if he is holding the "tres" a long time he ends it in time for the "cuatro".

(However, it is an excellent clip/explanation and we have used it a lot to get to grips with the beautiful and uplifting rumba variation.)

re your comment on the four main downbeat; again, how right you are, even when someone is using a 'convenience' count if he/she happens to be instinctively tapping their feet it invariable would be on the 1, 2, 3, 4 or on the 1&2&3&4&.

Cheers!

[Gstein212]

Speaking of all this technical counting, does anyone know of a good program to write drum notation for hand percussion?

[Congadelica]

Percussion studio

http://www.henrykellner.com/PercussionStudio/

[Gstein212]

Percussion studio looks like a fun program to play around with but I'm looking for a program that can write music notation nicely, like for an instructional book. I'm looking for notation similar to the conga book on the congaplace website. Clear, familiar, and fairly easy to read and understand.

Does anyone know a program like this?

[Derbeno]

Percussion studio looks like a fun program to play around with but I'm looking for a program that can write music notation nicely, like for an instructional book. I'm looking for notation similar to the conga book on the congaplace website. Clear, familiar, and fairly easy to read and understand.

Does anyone know a program like this?

I consulted my GF the piano player, she recommends as follows:

1. You can download relevant fonts (it has two for Bongos) and install into the font set of MSWORD from here: http://www.clevelandorff.org/fonts.htm
or
2. You can use "Finale Notepad" demo version and get 30 days full print option, after that it will cost around $9.50 http://www.finalemusic.com/notepad/

If you are looking for further sophistication, then you will be looking at the full version of Finale, Sibelius or similar with price ranges from $50 to $250+.

[CongaTick]

Yoni,

Great to hear from you. Fun tracks on the rock site. Have to say though, that there are some who have an inherent/genetic predisposition to certain musical talents... It would seem you fall into that enviable category as do many of the forum pros here. That doesn't discount the value of intense practice to sharpen those inherited skills.

[akdom]

Hi there

I was reading this thread with much interest.

I just wanted to ad a few personal ideas here since you guys already said a lot and make a lot of sense.

Counting 1 2 3 4 or feeling the beat or the clave, or understand how patterns "work" together are all very good ways to approach percussions.

I personally think that from the more intuitive to the more "controlled" counting ways, one can choose what fits best what one is looking for.

To play a 2/3 clave for example, you can count 1 2 1 2 3 to get the feel of the pattern. You can count 1 2 3 4 if you want to feel its off beat start, you can also listen to the bell or the marcha to understand how they fit and what they say when played together.

I personally use 1 2 3 4 counting when practicing with my timbalero once the clave and/or drum pattern comparison doesn't lead to a satisfactory solution. The 1234 counting becomes then handy to precisely spot where a stroke should be played. BUT once assimilated, then we shift our internal counting to simply listening to the global pattern created by our patterns plays together. This is when we grasp the break or arrangement we are working on.

When it comes to teachers and "mis" counting, to me there are two different explanations.
The first would be that the teacher never really understood the concept of counting themselves due to lack of understanding. I saw many teacher who couldn't even explain where what they were playing started because they didn't have a clue... When these are north American, Europeans etc, this is unacceptable (to me).
I have been teaching both for over 15 years and the day I decided to start teaching, I knew what the students were looking for and I knew that for most of them, the 1234 counting method would be the best way to learn. So I was ready too.
The second kind would be teachers from native countries of the music they teach. As mentioned earlier in a very interesting post, some culture barely or never use our 1234 counting method. So how could they instinctively know it? In this specific condition, the teacher will most of the time explain you patter using the counting that fits best his explanation.
I worked with a few west African who didn't know how to read or write. So no sheet music nor 1 2 3 4 counting. Just listening to the poly-rythmic and how all the patterns "work" together.

I am not sure if I am very clear since English is not my first language, but I guess you guys get my point.


Once again, very nice thread.

Happy new year.


B

[Amber]

Hi,
Happy New Year to everyone around here!
I followed with interest this discussion and totally agree with the opinion that counting the four beats is essential for the right feeling of the matrix. But many students (like me) have problems with the 1e+a, simply because counting this gives a knot in the tongue. I personally find it much simpler to speak syllables like Ta Ke Ti Na (instead of 1e+a) or something like this for rythms in four and Ga Ma La(1+a) for those in 3. Tapping the foot alternating right,left and saying this syllables is a good bodypercussion lesson and helps to ground difficult patterns.(Clap the accents while speaking) For example son clave:
Ta ke ti Na ta ke Ti na ta ke Ti na Ta ke ti na.
Just an idea, maybe helpful especially for beginners

Amber

[Light Seeker]

Amber, are you a student of Indian percussion?