Sharing rhythm transcriptions.

[jorge]

I suggest that those of you who want to learn Matanzas style bembe, rumba, arara, and bata from Sandy Perez but can't get to his classes in SF go to the Humboldt summer workshop this summer. Sandy will be teaching all those, and you will be able to talk with him and probably do audio recordings of his classes. Learn this stuff directly from Sandy. Trying to learn from just transcriptions or even transcriptions and CDs is much harder. If you know the rhythm and can play it how it is supposed to sound, but are just missing the exact hand pattern for 1 or 2 notes, the transcription might help you, but getting it to sound and feel right from a transcription is very hard. Just watching a master play you will pick up things by careful observation, how they hit the drum, the feeling of a particular rhythm, personal timing hand motions that you don't hear, dynamics of loud and soft, and lots of other subtle things that make a big difference in the rhythm. You will learn more in that week than in 6 months or a year of practicing on your own, regardless of how good a detective you are. Besides Sandy, there are 5 or 6 other master AfroCuban drummers and experiencing first hand how they play together is a huge learning experience. Plus you will support Sandy and the others and help keep the culture alive. Or you can hang out here on the board and argue over what is right and wrong. Your choice.

[davidpenalosa]

Sandy may not be aware of what is technically capable/attainable in this country

That's something I'm hoping Sandy gets some help with. He's at a disadvantage presently. Understandably, Sandy doesn't have the necessary skills to compete here in the digital age.
-David

[davidpenalosa]

I suggest that those of you who want to learn Matanzas style bembe, rumba, arara, and bata from Sandy Perez but can't get to his classes in SF go to the Humboldt summer workshop this summer.

It's well worth the journey and the $. The parties alone are worth it.

www.humboldt.edu/~extended/afrocuban

If I may go off-topic for a moment and indulge in a bit of self-promotion—this year at the workshop I will be teaching abakua at level 3 conga (three levels of conga instruction), and I'll be giving a lecture demonstration: Unlocking Clave, which deals with hearing clave in rumba, bata drums and other Afro-Cuban musics.
-David

[bongosnotbombs]

You know just to put this out there, I've been studying with Sandy for about a year now, once
and sometimes twice a week.
The transcriptions posted were rhythms that had been gone over multiple times in classes as well
as cross consulted between James and myself, and except for some sticking discrepancies we were
in agreement with what the rhythms were, which were also mainly posted in response to questions some
advanced percussionists had here on the board, musicians as far away as New York, France, England
and Germany. I've got 57 pages of 37 rhythms, James probably close to the same and I think we posted 3 or so between the two of us.
I don't think anyone can say we were trying to teach anybody anything.

I started this thread because I wanted to know how people felt when they were asked to share their transcriptions,
because I get asked by students in the class all the time, just last saturday I was asked by a woman in the class. Not if
it was right or wrong or whatever.

James and I are the only ones writing it down, and we retain the knowledge, and we practice it with a few friends that
also take the class. Most of other students, they forget it and don't remember it. Simple as that. Our friends that practice with us
rely on our transcriptions.

These are my transcriptions, not Sandy's, I made them, I took the class and nobody told me what I could and could not do with what I learned
there. I took my transcriptions down because I called Sandy and he asked me to, and I like the man and he's my teacher.
Tony's arrogant and condescending post on the matter did not motivate my decision.

[flaco999]

B&B ,
I think you did the right thing, and again I don't get why Sandy wanted you to take the transcriptions down since they are "yours".
It's never a good idea to tell people what to do with knowledge , it's very limiting and can be very frustrating.
As much as I love the folkloric stuff , I look down on it in a way for this black cloud of people always telling you what you "can" and "cannot" play. This is why I take my bembe's to the jazz club , where the true masters didn't tell you what to play, and had no rules .
I'm talking about cats like Elvin Jones , Tony Williams , Jerry Gonzalez , Milton Cardona .
You get where I'm coming from..
A good musician who has respect for tradition can "feel" authenticity , cause that's how the ancestors speak.
If you can't feel it and have to get Sandy's ok on what to play , you aren't going to say much for yourself, and are gonna sound redundant and limited in my opinion.
Just be slick and you can't go wrong.
It's not as mysterious as people would like you to believe.

[taikonoatama]

I also spoke with Sandy about this and have taken down the transcriptions (bembe and iyesa) I'd posted.

As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, I was very much on the fence regarding the share/don't share issue (particularly with respect to sharing it online), although I have often shared the transcriptions with classmates (from Sandy's class) who've shown they were serious about things and have the proper respect for Sandy and this tradition.

As for the online sharing, on the one hand I wanted to help people out who were asking about things related to what I also happen to be currently studying and working on myself, and in a small way spread an interest in and respect for Sandy and his family's tradition (access to this material being extremely difficult for most people not studying in Matanzas). On the other hand I feel protective of Sandy's family's tradition because of the knowledge that there's no way anyone can just look at a transcript, even if it were 100% accurate to how things are really played at the highest level in Cuba, and play it as it's meant to be played; it really is that deep.

For argument's sake, though, can't the same thing be said for almost any transcribed music? Take a look at a Thelonious Monk chart. Countless people have played Monk compositions over the years but nobody ever quite sounds like him. Does this do him a disservice? No, in fact it only makes people respect him all the more, and these charts serve to spread an interest in him and the genius of his music.

A great drumming example is John Bonham of Led Zeppelin, one of the greatest and most respected rock drummers of all time. Every song the band ever released has been fully transcribed. Countless drummers have played those grooves and it's widely acknowledged that nobody but Bonham ever played them like Bonham. People think the secret is in his particular Ludwig set and they go out and pay a lot of money for a vintage Vistalite kit or retro version. People think the secret is in the miking or the mixing. People think it's the heads. No. What many do not realize right off the bat is that he came from a jazz background and was really a slammin' swing drummer, greatly influenced by the likes of Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich, and that infused his playing with a special something that most of the wanna-bes don't have in them. Anyway, the point is that the transcriptions really serve to make people respect the source all the more.

Another great example would be Jimi Hendrix. You can no doubt fill in the the story there. It's all been transcribed, yet... Jimi... Wow.

I think anyone realistically attempting to play these charts of Sandy's music, with their seemingly unorthodox sticking and mind-bending shifts in the pulse, would necessarily be at a level to understand that they're just reading a script - playing an approximation of the real thing, the same way anyone learning Hendrix' Voodoo Child knows they're not really playing like Jimi. The transcriptions of Jimi's music do give people a helpful starting point to try to learn from the master, and in the end, even through the failure of people to really play like him, transcriptions of his music inspire an even greater respect for and interest in the man and his genius.

Bottom line is Sandy wants the material gone and it's gone - I have no problem with that or him.

James

[flaco999]

What you said about Monk , Jimi and Bonham was so dead on, and it makes me appreciate them all the more.
Written music could never convey the artists true expression, and I'd like to add Coltrane and Miles to that list.
How in the world could anyone ever sound like them from just reading a bunch of notes?

Also , I think you sparked a huge interest in Sandy Perez and his tradition , at least in me anyway.
I'm really dissapointed he asked you to take them down, but I guess he knows best what to do with his music.

[Tonio]

Sandy may not be aware of what is technically capable/attainable in this country

That's something I'm hoping Sandy gets some help with. He's at a disadvantage presently. Understandably, Sandy doesn't have the necessary skills to compete here in the digital age.
-David

Well, David, I'm not sure about that I don't think the performer should need digital skills pre se. It smore about the
caliber of musicianship and being photo centric -not sure if thats the correct term. I'm sure he can do it in his native tongue, and may benefit if he can in english.

James & Geordie can even be the instigators to have Sandy create a education video or a book/CD. Heck they might even know some company in Frisco to do the video and distribution work. They might even be able to find some support. Does Sandy endorse any conga mfr? DW/GonBops of CA?

Of course the material would need to be organized ahead of time.
I am sure the material that Giovanni H, and numerous other congueros had to have some assistance in material to cover and the way it needs to be set forth, not to mention the minut- in fornt of the camera esthetics. You get the idea.

T

[ABAKUA]

I took my transcriptions down because I called Sandy and he asked me to, and I like the man and he's my teacher.
Tony's arrogant and condescending post on the matter did not motivate my decision.

I want to point out, that the posting of these transcriptions were with the best of intentions, and the cats who posted them are seriously solid people and dedicated to learning what Sandy is teaching. No disrespect intended, its a touchy subject, obviously. I posted my concerns publicly, only because it is the subject of the thred. Perhaps i should have PMed this one. Its hard to express what Sandy wanted me to say, without stepping on toes. Sorry for the lack of tact.. im known for that.
Tony

[davidpenalosa]

I don't think the performer should need digital skills pre se.T

Tonio,
I should have been more specific. By "digital" I meant some computer skills; to be able to navigate in this world, where information is passed along in the blink of an eye. Mike Spiro is someone who has adjusted his approach to the new reality. I think that's the shape of things to come. I was speaking of teaching this music though, not performing it.
-David

[congaDR]

Thanks for the belly laugh ABAKUA!

Thanks for the pic, it brings back memories... Im the one with the wedgie..

T

[ABAKUA]

At least you in the outer circle, guess its better than being the little guy on the inner circle!

[Tonio]

I don't think the performer should need digital skills pre se.T

Tonio,
I should have been more specific. By "digital" I meant some computer skills; to be able to navigate in this world, where information is passed along in the blink of an eye. Mike Spiro is someone who has adjusted his approach to the new reality. I think that's the shape of things to come. I was speaking of teaching this music though, not performing it.
-David

David,
Yes I believe that you meant computer skills. Thats where my thoughts were also, perhaps I went onto to a tagent beyond that. When I said performer, I should have mentioned in a educational capacity. i.e. If accompanied educational video could relay the feel of subject ryhthm of criteria, then the " performance" portion of instruction would not need to be computer literate. But , yes in this day and age, its almost a neccesity to use a computer bleh I know where you were going with that

Personally, I v'e never had the opportunity to learn from Sandy, and the Humbolt jam scene . Is Sandy a great teacher as he is a performer? from what I gather it seems that Sandy is accomplished at being a teacher also. I think that would be a greater asset, however. The key is to be able to use that in a more technilogically advanced society. I think he needs help in that area, and hence my "idea" with James an BNB's interjection. That of course is up to them, but it may be a educatin in itself, however may pose as a way of returning the educational favor without the monetary context.

I had the opportunity to just have a short jam session with Michael Spiro, and I knew he has a great capacity of a teacher. Actually one of his students' was my bata "teacher" that is currently omo anya if I am not mistaken. I believe he was initiated (not sure of the correct terminology-its been too long) quite a few years ago. The video learning site which has been posted on this site as an introduction here has Michael as a instructor, which I haven't checked out thoroughly must be a good example of that.

T

[jorge]

Tonio and others, I think you are asking too much of one person, to be a master performer, outstanding teacher, and user of modern digital educational technology. Sandy Perez is the best quinto player I have heard who lives in the United States, period. I have heard a lot of outstanding quinto players in the US and in Cuba. Sandy is a true master of his instrument. He can teach a talented student with a good ear, but teaching quinto is hard (maybe impossible) and he doesn't have the highly developed pedagogical skills of MIchael Spiro, Skip Burney, and some of the other great conga teachers I have seen in action.

I think learning from a lot of masters is more about careful observation of the subtle things they do that distinguish them from the other 99.9% of players on their instrument, you can't expect someone to be a master player and a master teacher as well. Those are 2 completely different skill sets. It does happen rarely, but not often.

Skillful use of digital educational technology is a whole other realm too. Michael Spiro's website is the best video conga instruction I have seen, but he had a lot of help setting that up and is not doing the digital technology part himself. The best of all worlds would be a collaboration among a master performer like Sandy, a master teacher like Michael Spiro, and an excellent digital video crew like Steve Hendee who put together the Conga Master Class website.

I think the suggestion for Mike Spiro to have Sandy on as a guest artist, showing some of his techniques and style, is a great idea and I hope it comes to pass sooner rather than later. Steve assured me several months ago that they planned on doing just that, and the new timbale classes with Jesus Diaz and Mike Spiro are an excellent start. Understandably, these guys need to eat, pay their rent, put gas in their cars, support their families, put their kids through college, etc, and it is not fair to expect a class like that to happen for free. It takes an unbelievable amount of time, energy, dedication, and sacrifice to get to the level where they are, musically and pedagogically.

I would encourage members of this forum to check out the Conga Master Class website, to subscribe even for a month at a time, whatever you can afford, and to then send them requests to have guest artists like Sandy Perez give classes. I would say the same thing for the Humboldt University workshop, we should all try to go to that if at all possible, it is the most intensive Afrocuban percussion learning experience I have had or seen. Both of those teaching approaches are so much better than trying to learn a rhythm from transcriptions, even technically accurate transcriptions. Video and live teaching provide dimensions to the music that are completely missing from written transcripts. I would recommend transcripts to help you remember what you yourself learned in a class you took, but I can't see much value in trying to use them in isolation to learn a rhythm you never heard or played.

You guys who live in areas where there are no rumbas or Afrocuban drummers still have a huge set of resources available to you that didn't exist a generation ago, including well recorded CDs of the best of the best (no more third hand cassette tapes), performance and instructional DVD and YouTube videos, a bunch of great websites featuring AfroCuban music, occasional tours of Afrocuban groups, and the Humboldt workshops every summer. When Obama and congress open up travel to Cuba, we will all have additional opportunities but even now, there is more out there than you can realistically assimilate in your available time.

[Chupacabra]

This forum is composed of members of many different ages and beliefs, many of whom are from the pre-computer age. If it wasn't for the development of modern technologies such as computers and the Internet, many of us (like myself) would be completely left out due to the fact that locations like Victoria, B.C, Canada are not exactly thriving hotspots of ethnomusical culture at this point in time, especially when it pertains to folkloric music of the African diaspora. Maybe if I lived in Toronto or Montreal, with the much larger populations of Africans and descendants, the chances of having teachers of the calibre of Sandy Perez or others who run regular classes would be more available but that is not the case.
I often wonder why there is not a bigger Cuban community here due to the fact that Canada has always had pretty decent relations with Cuba. Not to mention the climate here on the Wet Coast is pretty darn moderate, but that is a topic for another thread, not this one.

It's not new information for anyone here that this art is a development of generation upon generation of oral teaching that has evolved, adapted, grown and mixed as a result of human interpersonal contact. It's a progeny of the forced amalgamation of tribal cultures during a time of massive suffering. Families, neighbors and friends have kept the embers glowing this long, and when you approach the spiritual aspects it goes further than what can be discussed here.

I have had the privilege of experiencing just a small sample of what I believe to be authentic instruction from visitors to this area such as Yoruba Andabo, Muñequitos de Matanzas, and other newer generation teachers. It is only after I've had experiences like that I can say "Hell Yeah! I have to learn more of this!"

Just some food for thought: If you were to attend an event such as an international soccer match for example, and the national anthems start and the host country just makes an absolute botch job of your country's anthem - how does that make you feel? Or how about this: You are a devout religious person and a certain pop princess of marginal talent who makes fortunes from her over-hyped music decides that she wants to incorporate references pertaining to your faith into her act in a distasteful, superficial manner so she can make more money. How would you feel? I could be wrong on this, but I think every culture in the world, including the Cubans (generally), are acutely aware of the weaknesses of our capitalist culture and the thought of having aspects of their cultural identity being turned out to a society that they themselves are distrustful of would be the equivalent of selling out.

These are just some random thoughts that I would like to add to this discussion.