Segunda in Traditional Rumba

[ABAKUA]

I'm sure most of you have by now seen this one:
http://youtu.be/TJ-5HUyn19k
This is the Matanzas style with flare. Maybe too much,, but he's obviously the leader here and the one calling the shots.

Thats my boys from Muñequitos de Matanzas, minus the quintero... The brother tears it up live with Muñequitos, I got to spend some time with them while they were floating around Havana, they absolutely tore the place up at Palacio de la Rumba where they performed a 2 and a half hour set. Smokin! Luisito on tres golpes, an awesome guy as well, very humble and friendly.
I got to play with with Muñequitos at a function at Casa de La Musica Galiano, the brother on Salidor thought I pullin his leg when I told him I lived in Australia lol he was like "Asere, dejate comer mierda, de veldad de donde eres?!" roughly translated, brother, stop talking/eating shit, seriously, where are you from?! My brother from Adalberto Alvarez took a pic at this very moment, you can see his face at that exact moment. Funny times. Awesome memories.
I got to catch Muñequitos several times during my 6 month stay, Ive only just gotten back.

Sorry for thread hijacking.

[jorge]

Thomas, you are right about cross influences between styles from La Habana and Matanzas. Most of the original group Guaguanco Matancero, which later gave birth to Los Muñequitos, Afrocuba de Matanzas and Rumboleros, were born and lived their lives in Matanzas. All three of these groups did travel to La Habana and around Cuba, but they were mainly carrying the message of Guaguanco Matancero and kept the Matanzas roots strong and pretty pure. The younger generations, including Sandy Perez, Luisito (who played with Sandy in Afrocuba before he joined los Muñequitos), and recently Sandy's son Deyvis (tumbador in the video, and a monster player like his father) have traveled internationally and have been influenced by rumba styles in la Habana and other places outside Matanzas. They have played jazz and other music forms outside Afrocuban music. Also, they listen to recorded music and many of the old timers didn't. Some of the old timers did not even have a CD player or phonograph, they just knew the music that they played and heard live. Luisito's segunda in the video starts off traditional Matanzas golpe / seis por ocho style, but then shows influences from Habana and other styles later on, and some of his floreos are not typical Matanzas style. And Luisito is seriously into the Matanzas folkloric music, Olokun and other religious roots, having played for years with ChaCha's group. The foreign cross influences are even stronger among rumberos from Matanzas with less religious roots. In NYC, some of the rumberos from Matanzas don't even play Matanzas style seis por ocho anymore, they have completely adopted Habana and NYC style tres dos style.

Pavlo, that is a very interesting recording with Macho Calderon and Chavalonga. At first I thought there was a quinto, tuned low, but then I realized it was the tres dos player playing muffs around his tres dos part, in a reverberant room. It is not easy to play tres dos and quinto at the same time on one drum. Even the monster player that he is, you can hear his tres dos part cross the clave several times, but then he comes back on clave. Playing tres dos on one drum and quinto riffs on another drum or cajon it is probably easier to stay in clave. Some of those quinto riffs Macho was playing are reminiscent of early recordings by Alberto Zayas and el Vive Bien Roberto Maza, and I have noticed that some of the old timers (eg, Candido) still revert back to the old style of tres dos with tones on the 3 side.

Abakua, I can't wait to hear about your experiences in Cuba.

[davidpenalosa]

. . . thinking in fixed territories for each drum part is one of those transitional entry concepts that make perfect sense in a teaching situation, but must be modified in "real" performance. Even your own transcriptions show that both salidor and segundo can play anywhere (as long as it makes sense, musically). And we all know that the quinto may be all over the place.

Certainly. I thought your initial post was asking about the “concept of segunda playing,” and the “adding [of] floreos, embellishments and variations.” I could have answered: “play from the heart; the salidor and segundo can play anywhere,” but I didn’t think that was what you were asking.

I feel that the so-called standard "quinto ride" should not be seen as binding, either. It may come in handy as a default "waiting pattern".

The quinto phrases correspond to specific footwork of the dancers. This connection has been lost over time. Young Cuban quinto players often don’t even look at the dancers anymore, unless they are playing columbia. Playing the quinto ride has become something of a lost art.

I suspect that the quinto ride has been a product of musical analysis, finding its principal application in the teaching circuit, but falling flat in real life.

I’m surprised that you said that, because I’m sure that you have recordings of Los Muñequitos from the 1950s-1970s. In the following excerpt, the quinto plays nine consecutive claves of the ride “El currito” at 0:02 (Los Muñequitos 1977). There are countless examples. This just happened to be the one I had handy.

Nine claves of quinto "lock." “El currito” at 0:02. Los Muñequitos (1977).

On a less relevant level: If I consciously chose to play less on the segundo today, then I would probably do so because I like it better, not because everything must be like it was yesterday.

I hope you didn’t think I was saying that everything must be like yesterday. I look to yesterday for the archetypal models. That is how I choose to interpret the high degree of abstraction occurring today. As much as I would love to go back in time and play in the old style, when I sit down with Cubans to play rumba these days, I don’t know what I’m going to play. It is definitely one of the most fun musical endeavors I am privileged to participate in. -David

[jorge]

Young Cuban quinto players often don’t even look at the dancers anymore, unless they are playing columbia.

Abakua, have you seen that trend in Cuba? I have not found this to be the case in NYC/NJ Cuban rumbas, in fact I have recently witnessed fights almost breaking out in the park when some drunk inadvertently blocks the quinto player's view of the dancers. Also some of the Puerto Rican bomba/plena players when they play rumba quinto are very tuned in to the dancers' steps. This is one part of the tradition that I think we should work hard to preserve. I have even seen dancers listed among the personnel of CD audio recordings of rumba, their role in the rumba is that fundamental.

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi David,

Certainly. I thought your initial post was asking about the “concept of segunda playing,” and the “adding [of] floreos, embellishments and variations.” I could have answered: “play from the heart; the salidor and segundo can play anywhere,” but I didn’t think that was what you were asking.

I understood that you were not answering any question of mine here (you did that directly in your previous post), but rather commenting on Pavlo's recording. - Whereupon I felt I should modify (not rectify!) the schematic doctrine of "segundo-on-the-two-side /quinto-on-the-three-side". After all it seems that we basically agree that this is nothing but a rule of thumb.

I’m surprised that you said that, because I’m sure that you have recordings of Los Muñequitos from the 1950s-1970s. In the following excerpt, the quinto plays nine consecutive claves of the ride “El currito” at 0:02 (Los Muñequitos 1977). There are countless examples. This just happened to be the one I had handy.

I know these recordings, but that's exactly what I mean: We analyze recordings (and perhaps live performances) and deduct a standard rule from it. In fact, the quinto ride may well be the only (more or less) fixed pattern that can be used for teaching classes. But musicians on performance level should not fall prey to this (their own!) simplification. It might suffice to just know about it; but then play music. And, who knows, those taught and learned notes might slip into one's free phrasing by themselves ...

I hope you didn’t think I was saying that everything must be like yesterday.

No, in that whole paragraph I was referring to rhythmrhyme's comment on traditional vs. modern and "traditional" being a subjective term.

Greetings,

Thomas

[jorge]

Whereupon I felt I should modify (not rectify!) the schematic doctrine of "segundo-on-the-two-side /quinto-on-the-three-side". After all it seems that we basically agree that this is nothing but a rule of thumb.

I think segundo on the two side is a pretty widely enforced way to play Cuban rumba in Cuba and outside. If you are a senior Cuban rumbero from the 50s the modern rumberos might cut you some slack on that, but crossing the clave on segundo and playing the usual pattern with the tones on the first 2 hits of clave (3 side) will get you kicked off the drum pretty quickly in all the Cuban rumbas I have been to. Of course, floreos that fit with clave can be played on either side. Unless you doing a floreo that people recognize, if the tone on the first beat of the 2 side of the clave is not there, all eyes will be on you by the second beat of that measure.

[Marcus]

Mr. Penalosa,

The rumba quinto 1-34.tif did not come through for me and I could not open it. Wondering if you would retransmit or even better is this in one of your publications. I have your books but not with me for a few days.

thx, marcus

[davidpenalosa]

The rumba quinto 1-34.tif did not come through for me and I could not open it. Wondering if you would retransmit or even better is this in one of your publications. thx, marcus

Hi Marcus,
Have you tried clicking on the graphic? When I do that, the entire example fills the screen. If that doesn't work, send me a private message. You can find this example on page 16 of Rumba Quinto. There are 78 variants of the "quinto lock," or "quinto ride" shown in that chapter.
-David

[davidpenalosa]

We analyze recordings (and perhaps live performances) and deduct a standard rule from it. In fact, the quinto ride may well be the only (more or less) fixed pattern that can be used for teaching classes. But musicians on performance level should not fall prey to this (their own!) simplification. It might suffice to just know about it; but then play music. And, who knows, those taught and learned notes might slip into one's free phrasing by themselves ...

I agree. Learned music slipping into a moment of free playing is the ideal.

I think the term rule is problematic in regards to a lot of aspects of rumba. I prefer strong tendencies, or underlying structure. Regardless of the concepts, or the methods used in learning the music though, the real test is in how we play it in a real life situation. If I'm thinking about what I'm doing, even if I'm playing rather well, I am not experiencing those fleeting moments of transcendence, which is what it's all about as far as I'm concerned.
-David

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Jorge,

Of course, floreos that fit with clave can be played on either side.

That's what I meant to say. I am aware of the correct, or required, positioning of the basic segunda stroke(s). Anyway, thanks for the tip.

Thomas

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi David,

I think the term rule is problematic in regards to a lot of aspects of rumba. I prefer strong tendencies, or underlying structure. Regardless of the concepts, or the methods used in learning the music though, the real test is in how we play it in a real life situation. If I'm thinking about what I'm doing, even if I'm playing rather well, I am not experiencing those fleeting moments of transcendence, which is what it's all about as far as I'm concerned.
-David

Amen. I knew we would eventually agree about that.

TA

[niallgregory]

Young Cuban quinto players often don’t even look at the dancers anymore, unless they are playing columbia.

Abakua, have you seen that trend in Cuba? I have not found this to be the case in NYC/NJ Cuban rumbas, in fact I have recently witnessed fights almost breaking out in the park when some drunk inadvertently blocks the quinto player's view of the dancers. Also some of the Puerto Rican bomba/plena players when they play rumba quinto are very tuned in to the dancers' steps. This is one part of the tradition that I think we should work hard to preserve. I have even seen dancers listed among the personnel of CD audio recordings of rumba, their role in the rumba is that fundamental.

I have seen it in Havana on lots of occasions , young quinteros who played really amazing stuff but who had no real interest in playing for the dancer . They where more concerned with chops and impressing the other drummers watching . In saying that they where incredible players who played with amazing fire etc . We where there studying and playing with havana rumberos who even pointed it out to us at the next session we had .

[jorge]

Sorry to hear that, Niall. Losing the link between the dancers and the drummers is a big deal, similar in a way to losing the ability to speak Yoruba with the bata drums, that seems to have happened in the early and mid 20th century.

[niallgregory]

Sorry to hear that, Niall. Losing the link between the dancers and the drummers is a big deal, similar in a way to losing the ability to speak Yoruba with the bata drums, that seems to have happened in the early and mid 20th century.

It was discussed over there Jorge and it was a strange thing to see tbh . One occasion springs to mind on the callejon de Hamel when a young gun was playing incredible machine gun like rolls etc with great power and an amazing sound and technique etc , it went on for quite a while and granted he was an exceptional young drummer it did get a tad boring . Next up was a frail old man who couldnt hit the drum any where near as hard but true to form his playing was beautiful and the crowd reacted hugely to his interaction with the dancers . He seemed to have a more " limited " vocabulary on the drum than the young guy but this gave him even more to draw upon in relation to his interaction with the dance . A great moment that was .

[ABAKUA]

Young Cuban quinto players often don’t even look at the dancers anymore, unless they are playing columbia.

Abakua, have you seen that trend in Cuba? I have not found this to be the case in NYC/NJ Cuban rumbas, in fact I have recently witnessed fights almost breaking out in the park when some drunk inadvertently blocks the quinto player's view of the dancers. Also some of the Puerto Rican bomba/plena players when they play rumba quinto are very tuned in to the dancers' steps. This is one part of the tradition that I think we should work hard to preserve. I have even seen dancers listed among the personnel of CD audio recordings of rumba, their role in the rumba is that fundamental.

Over the time I spent immersed in the scene, (I divided my time between the Rumba & the popular mainstream Timba scene) I witnessed both exapmple of the Quinto role performed. Open back street Rumba both traditional and evolved forms are open in their application of Quinto, dancers who joined in would normally follow the Quinto. With structured performances of professional groups the likes of Rumberos de Cuba, Yoruba Andabo, Ibellis, Los Munequitos, Vocal Boabab etc then the Quintero would follow the dancer in accordance to the structure of the song ie Verse, Chorus, spacing etc..
Callejon De Hamel & El Palenque where the Rumba is often open with people from the crowd jumping in to have a dance, then they would follow the Quinto normally, at times the dancer and the Quinto were not together, however the dancer has also evolved. The topic and cultural spread is too vast to generalize. Where a Rumba group had dancers as part of the ensemble then they would work together with the drummers & Quintero.

Here is a pic of me on Quinto during an all out Rumba at the Palenque in Havana.