Adapting patterns for hand to hand

[burke]

Hi everyone.

I think it's traditional on your first post to introduce yourself. If not apologies in advance for the bather about to follow.

My name is Darrell and I live in Nova Scotia, Canada (not known as a hotbed of drumming).

I got hooked on congas and bongos back in the seventy's listening to my big bros Santana albums. I bought a set of cheap bongos and have been hitting things with my hands every since.

Needless to say there was not a lot of instruction around back then around here and the best I could do was try to imitate the sounds I was hearing. I joined various bands and had no describable technique. The centre of the drum was terra incognito and the only 'heel/toe' motion was in my socks. One person did teach me the muted slap (to this day I am not comfortable with an un-muted slap...I practice it ... I try to use in when called for ... but like 'Bigfoot', I'm not sure if I really believe in it).I will say one thing for all that wrong or untechnique. I think I learned to listen to my fellow musicians pretty well because of it and, to improvise fairly well. It's a cliché but I truly, deeply feel that good music is a conversation between musicians.

Skip ahead to the mid 90's when there are now some knowledgeable and competent drummers around.

I go to one and take a couple of lessons. The result is that for the next few years I undertake the painful process of reconstructing myself and relearning drumming. I bought a couple of big fat scary books, taught myself how to read music and slowly picked away at it. I cannot tell you how painful it was at times. I went from someone who thought they could play to someone who had a rhythmic learning disability. People who had never touched a drum picked up stuff faster than I did. Very embarrassing.

I still play 'wrong'. Let me explain. I started with tumbao of course and added the natural things (cha, mambo etc.). But even as I practiced I felt there was a way of playing these patterns that would be more energy efficient and would feel more natural( at least for me). What feels more natural for me is to adapt rhymes to a more hand to hand style where possible. For example the right way to play danzon is:

H T S P O O H T S T H T O O
O O
L L R R R L R R L L R L L L R R

I prefer:

P P S P O O P P S T P P O O
O O
R L R R R L R L R L R L R L R L

(please ignore the spaces - I just have trouble getting things lined up)

I always spend some time practicing rhymes the 'right' way and I even practice them backwards (left handed for me) because of my belief that you have to know the rules in side out and backwards in order to break them, but when I play to actually play I play what feels natural.

To my ears difference is so minor as to be of no importance. I've checked in with friends who are ' gone to university studied music' jazz types and asked if they could hear a difference and the consensus has been “sounds the same to me man ... who cares as long as it sounds right?”

So I'm looking forward to feedback. Am I a heretic? Or have some of you out there also messed around with this.

If it's wrong I'd like to know why (ie. How will it actually mess up the music?)

ps.

I doubt anything said will convince me to change. While there is some stubbornness in this, the main reason is, that I'm not a pro and never plan to be. I play for my own satisfaction, blood pressure control and interest. However, I still want to know how folks feel about this.

Cheers

Darrell

[Liverneck]

Originally posted by burke“To my ears difference is so minor as to be of no importance. I've checked in with friends who are ' gone to university studied music' jazz types and asked if they could hear a difference and the consensus has been “sounds the same to me man ... who cares as long as it sounds right?””

Hey Darrell, how’s it goin up north there eh.
Well… I see it like this. Please bare with my long windedness as it has a purpose for my point. :laugh: There are two sides to the coin of what’s right and what’s not, and it really boils down to what and who your playing with. In my early teens, I’d get conga books so I could learn rhythms, figure out hand positions and sounds. I understood rhythm and could read notes, but the stuff in the books looked peculiar and I tried to understand it as best I could. Hence, I found out later that what was trying to be conveyed from the book was not necessarily how I was playing it. Same with listening to records, Santana, Aierto, & albums with Mongo and Chano, maybe I didn’t necessarily hear everything that was being played or I heard it incorrectly. But I was addicted to practicing, so I took what I thought was right and played it over and over until the tempos cooked... I just knew what I knew. The grooves and licks I was playing was fine for the guys I was playing with, jazz, rock and funk mainly, It fit and was fun to play. I thought I knew Cuban, Dominican, even Samba… etc.. grooves and thought “Man, when I graduate school and move out of the midwest suburbs, I’m gonna jam with the Salsa & Samba cats in the city!”

Then… BAM! I started trying to play with those guys by 21 and I was like… “WutTheFk is going on here. This wasn’t in the book? Those aren’t the right hand positions? Where the heck is One?”…lol. Luckily, some of those guys were cool enough to turn me on to what was going on. Turns out, with the traditional guys, even one note or sound out of place in the engine (perc. section) can throw off the groove. A lot of the soloing by the Salsa guys is done by starting the idea on or off the beat, shorter two count ideas strung together to create a phrase… this was all new to me. But I am pretty head strong & stubborn like you and didn’t want to totally give up the way I had been playing even tho those guys wanted me to change completely, because a lot of what I was doing was ‘Incorrect technique’ to them. I learned what they wanted, took what I could from them, then made it my own and just incorporated it into my arsenal. It turns out that some of the stuff that I was playing ‘incorrectly’ became grooves that worked well with other styles of music and kind of individualized me. It’s important to learn the tradition, but incorporate your own style to. Playing Son with an orchestro is different than playing a ‘more natural to me’ tumbao in a jazz setting. I’ve noticed the biggest difference with swing and some funk. In jazz, to be able to switch gears and swing the eighth note like a jazzer takes a different approach physically and mentally than hard core Salsa while playing drums, hand drums and congas. Not to dog anyone, but I’ve noticed some congeros can’t swing or funk, but play the heck out of the traditional Cuban/Puerto Rican etc.. styles.

My long winded tirade points to this…Please don’t get me wrong, I’m sure what you’re practicing is correct and that your good at it. But don’t think what you play naturally is ‘Incorrect’. Your ‘Hand to Hand’ sticking (handing…lol) has it’s time and place, just bring it out when appropriate and it feels/sounds good. I see no problem with it and encourage you to keep it into your arsenal of grooves and licks. Learn and discover your playing to expand yourself, not limit yourself, wether you play as a pro or for your own satifaction. Above all… Play for God and yourself, there is no one more worth playing for.

originally posted by burke“ I went from someone who thought they could play to someone who had a rhythmic learning disability.”

Man… If your talking about some teacher/instructors, I have been down the same path as you before. I’ve had some who just wanted my money. Some who talk the game, but when you sit down with them to play you wonder what all their hype was about. And some who are great, who really know there stuff and have the hands and experience to back it up.

[Juzzi]

Hello Burke!
Of course there is the way of playing right and wrong but things can be made many ways. There is not only one way to play some things correctly. In your example, danzon, there isn't congas involved if you're not talking about the "nuevo ritmo". Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be a wiseass but this is how it goes.

If you sound good, that is what it should be. Nothing more.

All the best,

-J

[burke]

Hey Liverneck, juzzi,

Thank you both for the thoughtful replies. I must admit I rather thought the topic was dead, but I’m glad you both gave it some time.


Right & wrong ways of doing things is a subject that preoccupies me quite a bit in many aspects of life – not just percussion.

When does the wrong way become a new way?

How much of some peoples sometimes fierce defense of the right way or tradition stem from cognitive dissonance? (ie.” that’s the way I had to learn it, I’ve committed huge amounts of time and energy to this and after all that I’ll be dammed if I let anyone tell there are other options”.).

A lot of the musical/rhythmic traditions aren’t all that old in the grand scheme of things. I don’t pretend to know very much about Cuban music history (I had to look up nuevo ritmo!), but from what I’ve read, mambo,cha etc. only came to be in the last 50 years or so and evolved out of other traditions. I betya somebody back then DID NOT approve!

I expected to get fairly polarized responses to this and really enjoyed both rather moderate responses. As for whether changing the traditional hand patterns really matters, the only way to know for sure would be to do a blind coke/Pepsi taste test. Literally put a blindfold on a player so they wouldn’t know by looking if you were playing unorthodoxly and seeing if they could tell the difference consistently.

I suspect it would depend on who was listening. A really high level player would likely hear it, middle level maybe not, novices not at all.

I’ve excerpted and put together two sections of your post Liverneck, because the resonated for me.

“Turns out, with the traditional guys, even one note or sound out of place in the engine (perc. section) can throw off the groove. … . “It’s important to learn the tradition, but incorporate your own style to. Playing Son with an orchestro is different than playing a ‘more natural to me’ tumbao in a jazz setting.”

I guess right vs wrong all depends on who you are and what you want.

For an enthusiastic hacker like me I’m pretty sure that I’d totally mess up a hard core traditional orchestro. (except maybe on bongos which seem to have slightly more freedom). My idea of heaven would be to find a bunch of other hackers and try to work out pseudo ‘real’ Cuban music. As for jazz and other forms what I do now is just fine and basically other musicians enjoy playing with me and I them.

One thing I didn’t mention in my intro was that while I was listening to my brothers Santana albums, I was also listening to what percussionists, like Ray Cooper & Russ Kunkel were doing with congas & bongos with Elton John, James Taylor (not to mention the Doobies, Rare Earth and a host of others) and loving the sound and contribution it made to the music. While much of what they were doing was traditional, much (I’m fairly certain) was ‘made up’. Frankly, I admire that inventiveness equally with the monstrous skill of a traditional player.

“If you sound good, that is what it should be. Nothing more.”

“Play for God and yourself, there is no one more worth playing for.”

I love both those statements!

[JohnnyConga]

As one who was raised and taught as a "traditional" conga drummer,I realized that yes there are "definate structered" patterns that fit into the Latin music that I play, and have been that way ever since. But as time has gone by, even "my style" and "approach" have expanded and grown, with inventiveness, creativity, and imagination. And as one can see today a lot of that exists and the proficiency of players has also grown tremendously. what is wrong? what is right?....I thought a solo by a conga player in a merengue could be wrong until I heard Joey de Leon do it on the latest Susie Hanson CD, it blew me a way, a conga solo in a merengue??? say what....that has NEVER been done. Normally the tambora may give out a few licks, but never the conga player. So what we know as "rules" are being broken and broken very well in some cases. It still doesn't give you license to not play what is "proper". As far as some percussionists have "made up" parts due to a lack of proper knowledge of the drum and the education of rhythms/styles, they will always be around, and in some cases very inventive and in others, outright suck. I understand "my gift", and have learned to "respect" what has been given to me, and to furthur the progress of it. The drum road is a long and winding road, but very exciting and very fulfilling to me, or else I would have given it up a long , long time ago, now I'm in my 40th year of performing and will continue for another 40, God willing and that my body holds up too..... ??? this is my dissertation for the day, just my 2 congas......."JC" Johnny
Conga..... :;):

[burke]

Sucking is in the (eye) ear of the Beholder.

A non-drumming example. I studied theatre in university and a fellow student auditioned for the American Academy of Dramatic Arts (States) and for the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art (UK). Both equally well thought of schools. One said he sucked and he should give up now the other thought he was brilliant and invited him in. Who was right? Both I'd say because such judgements must by their very nature have an element of subjectivity.

I took a really cool astectics course once and by the end of the year I felt I had learned one thing and one thing only. And that is that the statement, "I may not know art (music) but I know what I like" is always perfectly valid!

Cheers

Darrell

[JohnnyConga]

They also say "to each his own"..... :;): I hear ya!...
"JC" Johnny Conga.....

[Liverneck]

from burke
How much of some peoples sometimes fierce defense of the right way or tradition stem from cognitive dissonance? (ie.” that’s the way I had to learn it, I’ve committed huge amounts of time and energy to this and after all that I’ll be dammed if I let anyone tell there are other options”.).

from Johnny Conga
I understand "my gift", and have learned to "respect" what has been given to me, and to furthur the progress of it.

I think to a good degree that the respect for the history behind these drums and their styles, rhythms, etc… plays a role in keeping things traditional and even expanding on the tradition. Now I’m not saying because someone doesn’t adhere to these traditional concepts to a ‘T’ when playing, that they don’t respect the history and tradition behind the technique and grooves. But someone who has been surrounded with certain styles, grew up with or immersed themselves into a scene or culture pertaining to those styles … may have a better insight into why they were created in the first place, even what the music is really trying to convey. They hold on to, and expand on, the tradition not only because it sounds good to them, but out of respect for the people who brought it to life.

But I see what your saying Darrell. Like… without changing up Blues, Rock N Roll wouldn’t have come about. Just look at how Heavy Metal has changed in the last 15 years. Someone started doing something different and offshoots and genres within metal started popping up. Man… just listen to Messugah (sp?) or Special Defects with Morgan Agren, IMO, stuff like that is sure to change the way people will play metal in the future.

[Simon B]

I agree with comments about the need for inventiveness and creativity in playing. I can well imagine solid Afro-Cuban percussionists who can't muster good funk grooves or a feel outside their usual range of playing. But I do think that traditional playing has got a great deal to say about getting a range of tones efficiently out of the drum. Trying to do this without the knowledge of generations does not seem wise. That's what I try and take from the drum lore - knowledge of the techniques, traditional patterns, etc, but a willingness to use these to piece together my own patterns too.

I think if you look at truly great artists - painters, writers, sculptors, musicians, etc - they nearly all learn the traditional ways and wherefores before finding their own voice. It is very unusual for an artist to create boldly original and dynamic work before learning the lore, even if later on they throw this in the dustbin through the power of their own vision.

Simon B

[JohnnyConga]

For me, it was taught, that the "foundation is tradition" and work from there. Never forget the "Roots". But I have always said the more you have in your arsenal the more "diverse and stylistic" you can become, also. You can't really work without a "base" to start from, and for me that is where "the tradition" of learning and playing came in, and I pass it on to others that seek it out. This is what I was taught. "JC" Johnny Conga...... :;):

[burke]

I don't think anyone who has replied to my post has mistaken my intent, but just for the record I'm far, far from anti-tradition. Like I said in my first post I had to un-learn 20 years of very bad habits and go back to basics. I know with absolute certainty that learning the basics (which I'm still learning and working on) has made me a better player. What I wondered about was how far folks out there thought it was OK to adapt traditional patterns to an individual comfort level.

I think what I'm generally hearing is that it's fine depending on the musical context, but you can never completely ignore tradition eather.

Does that sound about right?

[Liverneck]

Right on burke, I don't think anyone is saying your anti-tradition. This is a good topic with good replies. We may have taken a turn and asked 'Is the tradition important?' but playing the rhythm hand to hand or traditionally is what it boils down to.

So the question remains...'Can someone tell if (say for example) a Tumbao was played hand to hand, if it would be noticable? and/or would it change the music noticably? I think to a well trained ear, it would be noticable. If an experienced player with very good hearing is concentrating what the conguero is playing, the may pick up on the two palms instead of the heal/toe or other notes. This is assuming the sounds are distinct enough to notice. Does this change the groove? For me, I notice in my playing the sticking (handing) of a groove can change the feel in some cases. My straight sticking (or hand to hand) gets a bounce or slight swing in son tumbao.

[JohnnyConga]

You got it Burke. Tradition has it's place, of course, but there is a definate amount of freedom also allowed in playing. I find that I'm the most "free" when I'm playing,is when I'm playing a tune that I'm familiar with and can enjoy watching the people dance and check the crowd out, even maybe call out a section of the tune to my members, to prepare them for whats to come. Freedom in one's playing is where it's at. I am trying to get my horn section in my band to stop using charts and put the tunes to memory. My example to them are the horn players that Mongo Santamaria used, they didn't use charts. So they were "free" to play . I feel the same about what I do. So be "free" Burke..there's a lot to explore...."JC" Johnny Conga...

[untaltumbador]

Burke, how are you? I think you are elevating the concept of tradition to the "thing in itself". Think about it, if tradition is held as valued as you think it is important, then none of us are true to it. One will have to be part of its origin. The opposite is true, this instrument has gotten to be were it is at, in your hand and in my hand because it broke away with tradition. Having said this then I have to tell you that I don't believe there is a right and a wrong way because these are rather strict term where there is only subtle variations. There are no two tumbadores that can play exactly the same. As much as you may want to sound like your favorite conguero you will not, and if after infinite hours of practice you managed to sound much like him, then you are a copy.
I don’t mean to sound negative or even positive for that manner the sound of this drum is bigger than both. I rather urged you to just play it, any way you want to, watch other so that you can socialized and even praise and admire and must of all energized. Remember that they are 4 basic sound and countless lesser tones and that the only thing that set us apart from each other is not so much the commitment to the drum but the practice, practice, practice.

My regards

[burke]

Hi untaltumbador,

I think where you're going with tradition is "not the thing itself" is like another analogy,"the map is not the territory". Tradition being the map, it only represents the actual thing itself -the playing. Shows how to get there, or maybe where you've been. But if you've arrived, you don't need the map anymore!

Or:

"Tradition is like a box of chocolates..." (sorry, I just could not resist the bad joke!)