ehh

[percomat]

hello. a question: i have been thinking lots about differences between modern drummers like giovanni and older heroes like chano, and they seem to be very different and represent different perspectives on conga-playing. they play in a different manner concerning pace and sound. i usually think of them both as virtuoses, but gio got more modern drums and technique. i also think about their personalities, and they seem very different in that manner too, and then i came to think of gio in one of his videos, where he mentions many important congueros, but he didn`t mention chano, why?
i also get the impression that conga-playing is a big phenonomen among middleclassamericans, is it? and how do they (you?) relate to chano, who i see related to the streetstyle-rumba-kind-of-playing, and to gio, the modern-technique-super-virtuos? is there some kind of conflict between the styles? i read on the net that tata guines, for example, did not like the super-fast playing. (to me he seems to point at what gio plays) and i`ve heard many congueros saying they don`t like chanos style.. hmm

[windhorse]

Hi Percomat, I'll have to find some of the music of Chano. Gio, I'm quite familiar with. Perhaps I myself could be used to support your hypothesis that many American middle class are taking up the conga. I did,, and might have been influenced by "flash in the pan" style playing of drums. But, it wasn't really conga players. It was Sat. morning TV shows when I was a young boy. I was influenced at a very young age with the beat of drums by the Banana Splits and the Monkeys. Know anything about them?? :p

The dance to rhythm, the desire to play drums - never left me, but due to my reluctance to practice or try to make time and sit down to learn how to play, I never did anything about it until later in life. Only 3 years ago at the age of 42.

But, the influence on my playing is mostly from my teachers, not a DVD or CD hero. I sure love to watch Giovanni play at hyperspace speeds,, but I don't have aspirations of playing as fast as him. I do however admit that watching him has opened up my practice with the possibility of stretching the speed limits. I have some amazing buddies who play very elegantly. They bring out the tones nice and full, and hit slaps in the gaps very precisely, and they are my real heros. Perhaps they're more like Chano? I don't know.

All the best,, from a middle class American,, who doesn't claim to be the "average" American in the least. (not republican, not married, no kids, no house, love Afro-Cuban music!)

Dave

[percomat]

i`ve heard of the monkeys, but not too much of their music, the other band i don`t know. anyway thanks for responding.

[yoni]

Hi Percomat,

I don't think there is a "conflict" between the styles of Chano and Gio - they are simply different. Which style one might prefer is just a matter of taste. And the same listener might dig hearing Chano's style at one time and Gio's at another.

And I've heard Gio play at times slow and lovely, and remember hearing stuff by Chano where he was just on fire. Gio and some others made a technical jump by bringing stick drum technique to congas, but there can still be much variation within the styles of many good and great drummers.

As to why Gio didn't mention Chano Pozo in the video you saw, who knows? Maybe it was an oversight, and anyway there are more great congueros, known and unknown, than one can possibly mention at once.

All the best,
Yonatan Bar Rashi

[yoni]

Oh, an afterthought...

I've had the pleasure and honor of working with Luther Francois, Clive Zanda, and later with T.W. Woodly. These musicians' names may not be too familiar, but they are some of the known fathers of Caribbean Jazz, mainly in the realms of Calypso, Reggae and Zouk (fused with Jazz).

When Woodly, aged about 70, first heard me play double rolls he said "Wow - the 'flat roll'! I haven't heard that in a long, long time."

So maybe some were using that technique long before Giovanni and Changuito. Maybe there's nothing new under the sun!

[zaragemca]

Saludos Percomat,in order to analyze the situation you have to put it in the context of timing,becouse we know now that the conga playing have been evolving since the time when Chano Pozo and other congeros were creating the foundation of the conga patterns,( and that is their historical value).As to Chano himself, he was the fire which help to put an important chapter in the Jazz-Book,(U.S.A.) in the structurization of,(Bebop),and later (Hard-bop),and later Latin-Jazz,and later Afro-Jazz.After those historic recording with Dizzy Gillespie's and 'Parker',a lot of jazz band were looking for conga players for recording and jamming.And all that without mentioning all the stuff which he did in Cuba before comming to the U.S.(as composer,dancer,singer,and Show-man).



Edited By zaragemca on 1107457679

[percomat]

true, but is it not also true that when people talk about Giovanni they talk technique, while the biggest dimension talking about Chano, and other streetstyled rumberos, seems to be his crazy lifestyle and the 'changoish' wildness. I read one place on the net, I think it was an intervju with Bobby Sanabria, who questioned why congadrumming and afrocuban music wasn`t respected as anything more than some kind of wild entarteinment, like it seemed to be in the forties with Chano. All information about Chano has this, lets call it disrespecting, focus. Even though I liked Jordi Puyol, not the footballplayer, notes in El Tambor de Cuba. Anyway, it seems to me that Giovanni actually get that respect Sanabria calls for, and maybe Chano wouldn`t get the same respect even if he played the same style as Gio does!

PP. I really like the point that people have been playing fast in earlier times too. I remember that for example El Nino Alfonso of Irakere stunned med concerning pace.

[Berimbau]

As always, many stimulating posts here. I think that there are enormous differences in the worlds in which Chano Pozo and Giovanni Hidalgo developed both their personalties and their art. For one, the tumbadoras of Chano's time did not have our modern hardware, resulting in a far different instrument to contend with. Jazz and Latin musics were young lovers then, and the fruit of their romance but a kiss and a promise.
Although the troika of Tata Guiness, Changuito, and Giovanni have since arrived at groundbreaking new techniques, the technical legacy of Chano, Candido and Patato should in no way be diminished. However, I do think that Chano is perhaps best remembered first for his groundbreaking musical influence and his skills as a composer and dancer rather than for any pyrotechnic tumba chops. In an interview Mongo Santamaria once assessed Chano's legacy in these same terms, further hinting that he thought that Chano's skills as a conguero were perhaps less than legendary. Still other interviews with St. Mongo have also included much praise for Chano as an excellent conguero. I wonder what Mongo's REAL assessment was? Unfortunately, the music business has always been thick with personal politics.
Sadly, I can't help but to bring up the issue of racism, which was omnipresent in Chano's time. As a Spanish speaking hand drummer with a pronounced African phenotype, Chano was subject to more than a little racial stereotyping, and in the popular immagination of those times, his reputation as a "wildman" was thus cemented. As a victim of racist circumstances, Chano's explosive personality probably did little to deflate this imagery. Although the overall picture has now much improved, racism is still an intregal part of U.S. and Latin American societies, and continues to shape public opinion.
Giovanni Hidalgo, on the other hand, is bilingual, has a European phenotype, and comes from a far more middle class background than the impoverished solar of Chano's youth. Born in the information age, Giovanni had one foot firmly in a world of western music education and the other deep into Caribbean folklore. In what appears to be an unselfconscious manner, Giovanni has integrated the musical values of two different cultures into a new synthetic approach that has revolutionized the tumbadoras. He also appears to have a healthier lifestyle and a more sustainable, longterm financial income. Because Giovanni's experience was so vastly different than Chano's, the personality profiles of these two innovative giants is also greatly different. In this respect, comparisons between these two artists seems fruitless, as each will enjoy their own unique legacy. One must simply listen and learn from their musical output.

Saludos,


Berimbau

[zaragemca]

thanks Berimbau, but the facts is that many peoples don't know the discrimination which percussionists have to deal at that time(including the fact that bongos and congas were prohibited in Cuba by president Gerarado Machado),becouse they were trying to 'whiterized' the cuban music,some of then went to jail for playing bongos,or africanized stuff,(as it was called at that time).When Miguelito Valdez tryed to get Chano in to the Casino's Orchestra,he was told that he was to black,the same with Arsenio Rodriguez.When Chano Pozo was traveling with Dizzy Gillespie's through the south,his congas were stolen so he couldn't performed,black musicians have to use differents hotels than whites,they were not alloweed to performed in some of the places becouse they color,etc. If that is not a reasone to become wild,..I don't know what a good reason could be.



Edited By zaragemca on 1107544288

[Berimbau]

Hey Zaragemca!
You make a great point. I wrote something about drum bans in the Caribbean and the U.S. on Nolan Warden's site last week. As we can see from this site, such bans were none too effective!! As to the effects of racist drum bans on Cuban percussion instruments, you score another point. In fact, some instances of technological innovation in African-derived organology WAS shaped by racism. By adopting some of these innovations, as on a hardware tuned bata drum Ortiz documented in 1915, resulted in synthetic instrument which were far more sociologically acceptable to the dominant European society. Timbales were ok. They were "French," right? Bongos took a little more time, but put 'em in a string band with some hardware on 'em, and hey, they don't look too African. But the tumbadoras were JUST TOO AFRICAN for the man. Would you want your nice daughter dancing to THAT tambour? Just how long until her dress came off? Nice white kids would be unable to control their animal desires once they felt that jungle beat in their loins. Oh, St. Mongo preserve us!!! What were they thinking!!!
Interestingly enough, Marcos Suzano describes a similar situation in Brasil where pandeiristas were jailed for playing that instrument!!! All this in spite of the pandeiro's 800 year plus history in Portugal!!! It must have reminded the Rio city fathers of the Moorish Invasion!!! Well anyway, everyone should read Nolan Warden's fascinating "A History of the Conga Drum" in February's Percussive Notes. Me, I'm heading into New Orleans to drink some beer and catch beads at yet another Godforsaken voodoo parade.

Saludos,

Berimbau

[zaragemca]

saludos,Berimbau,have a good time in New Orleans.